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Puzzles, Games and Name That Car => Solved AutoPuzzles => 2007 => Topic started by: Otto Puzzell on January 14, 2007, 07:17:29 AM
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If you look at these two competition automobiles, the venue for which they were designed is relatively easy to discern. However, it's the engines of the two cars which are connected, over many decades, via one famous family and two famous brands. Can you make the connection?
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Thanks!
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What an interesting new thread idea! Bravo! :applause:
Things which are obvious to you are less so to me, so let's begin with the location. Obviously, it is on a roadway somewhere, which brings to mind the Nurburgring, but could be any one of hundreds of locations before dedicated race tracks became the vogue. Could possibly be the Isle of Man, as well, or even the main thoroughfare from Paris to Lyon 70 years ago!
As to the engineer, there is a thought tugging at my brain........no, actually, that's the cat chewing my leg in anticipation of an outdoors excursion!
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It isn't Goodwood, is it?
Dan
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No, the venue is in the US.
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Runinating over my scramble eggs, it occured to me that the venue is NOT Europe but rather the US. KU has since confirmed this, but I really did think of it before I saw his reply.
Its still a road course, of course, and the most famous road course in the US of A is at Watkins Glen, on the shores of Lake Cayuga. Which gives rise to this satirical anomoly espoused by college students at a certain Ivory League college located hell and gone from anywhere in the wilds of New Hampshire that goes something like this:
Far above Cayuga's waters, there's an awful smell.
Some say its Cayuga's waters, others say Cornell. :lmao:
But I digress.....
The Glen is my guess, although Bridgehampton is a pretty good alternate choice.
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OK - this is getting off track (pun intended). I'm looking for the goods on the engines in these two cars, not where they raced.
The cars pictured were both built for the Indy 500.
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Maybe both powered by steam or diesel engines?
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No, both were Otto cycle, spark-ignition engines. .
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Does the name "Miller" have anything to do with it? Offenhauser would be too easy.
BTW, it is my fault for the off course excursion. I thought if we could isolate the track that the answer to the main question might come into clearer focus. But in this case, I thought wrong. And not for the first time today, either! ::)
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The brands and the family I'm looking for are neither Miller nor Offenhauser.
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The cars look to be about 50 years apart. I'm tempted to say that maybe Louis or Arthur Chevrolet was involved, most likely Louis. He was involved with the Frontenac auto, which, as I recall, had Ford origins, so I'll guess that th first car has an early Frontenac engine The second car could be the last of the normally aspirated Fords that ran at Indy in the late 1960's. I believe that Bob Hurt drove the last one of those in 1969, and was bumped. It's a long shot, I know...
Dan
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An excellent guess, but no.
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is the second car a Repco-Brabham?
Dan
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OK - this is getting off track (pun intended). I'm looking for the goods on the engines in these two cars, not where they raced.
The cars pictured were both built for the Indy 500.
Did either car actually qualify for the race? I can't find any info on the #50 in any of my Indy books...it's obviously a late '60's car. and i can't find any indication that a car with thatr particular number actually ran in a race at the Speedway during that time. I checked from 1965-1971. Another wild shot...could the #50 be the STP Plymouth that Art Pollard drove in practice in the late '60's? And could the ##6 car be a Maxwell? I'd be at a loss as the the famous family, however...but Plymouth/Maxwell...Maxwell, Chrysler...I'm really stumped, and Indy cars are kinda my specialty...
Dan
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OK - this is getting off track (pun intended). I'm looking for the goods on the engines in these two cars, not where they raced.
The cars pictured were both built for the Indy 500.
Did either car actually qualify for the race? I can't find any info on the #50 in any of my Indy books...it's obviously a late '60's car. and i can't find any indication that a car with thatr particular number actually ran in a race at the Speedway during that time. I checked from 1965-1971. Another wild shot...could the #50 be the STP Plymouth that Art Pollard drove in practice in the late '60's? And could the ##6 car be a Maxwell? I'd be at a loss as the the famous family, however...but Plymouth/Maxwell...Maxwell, Chrysler...I'm really stumped, and Indy cars are kinda my specialty...
Dan
Ok, if that second car is a Plymouth, or some other Mopar derived powerplant, I think I can make at least *a* connection to car #1. Wether or not it is the one you're after I don't know.
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is the second car a Repco-Brabham?
Dan
No
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OK - this is getting off track (pun intended). I'm looking for the goods on the engines in these two cars, not where they raced.
The cars pictured were both built for the Indy 500.
Did either car actually qualify for the race? I can't find any info on the #50 in any of my Indy books...it's obviously a late '60's car. and i can't find any indication that a car with thatr particular number actually ran in a race at the Speedway during that time. I checked from 1965-1971. Another wild shot...could the #50 be the STP Plymouth that Art Pollard drove in practice in the late '60's? And could the ##6 car be a Maxwell? I'd be at a loss as the the famous family, however...but Plymouth/Maxwell...Maxwell, Chrysler...I'm really stumped, and Indy cars are kinda my specialty...
Dan
The car was unsucsessful in qualifying for the 500. The years you list are the correct era for this car, which is not a Plymouth.
The older car is not a Maxwell.
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I know exactly what the older car is, and what it's engine is. But I'm struggling with the connection between the two.
Can I get an ID point for the early car? ;D
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no.
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Well in an effort to get this ball rolling, and the fact that it's driving me absolutely bonkers...
The older car is a Kline-Duesenberg "Jimmy Junior" circa 1914. Named after James Kline. It is my best assumption that because it's got a Duesenberg connection, it must be Duesenberg powered. Besides, if you were building an Indy car in those days, what better powerplant could you choose from? The car recently sold at auction.
http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/magazine/3500.asp?id=11844
Scroll down about half way to read about it.
Now can someone tell me what that other blasted car is???!!! :-\
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Well done - you've cracked a key piece of the puzzle.
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Is the 1st car the Kleinart car that Art Kline drove at Indy in 1915?
Dan
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Is the 1st car the Kleinart car that Art Kline drove at Indy in 1915?
Dan
I wondered that too, but I couldn't find any documentation to support it.
Doesn't mean it was or wasn't though...
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Is the 1st car the Kleinart car that Art Kline drove at Indy in 1915?
Dan
I don't know, but it's not important to the quiz at hand.
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Is there a connection that both cars are now owned by the same family?
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No.
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Are both cars powered by straight-8 engines?
Dan
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They are not. The new car has a straight 6.
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Was the second car an official entry at the Speedway? Did it get any track time?
Dan
Dan
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It was entered, and attempted (and failed) to qualify, more than once.
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Okay, time to get foxy...
Dan
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I don't know the answer but can throw more stuff into the fire. The Kline Kar was from Lancaster Pennsylvania. The widowed Mrs Kline was a neighbor to a friend of mine, and she always drove Cadillacs. So could Cadillac be the answer? I believe that the Klines later started Universal Tire Co., which today makes tires for old cars.
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The connection is not Kline.
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The connection has to be somehow Duesenberg then right?
Are they similar designs such as the walking beam engines?
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The Duesenberg connection is right. However, the configuration of the newer engine is utterly conventional, even a bit outdated, by racing standards.
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hmm... So the new car has a Duesenberg motor eh?
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No.
Re-read the puzzle question at the beginning of this thread.
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Okay, here's what I got... the second car was built by Barney Navarro in 1968 and was powered by a Straight-6 AMC engine displacing 199 cubic inches. It was a flathead, and was twin-turbocharged. Problems with the carburettors werre enough to keep the car from qualifying, even though it was rumopred to have put out from 550-700 hp.
Possible connections between engines:
1. both flatheads
2. both turbocharged
3. both used more than 1 turbo
Connections woiuld be Duesenberg/AMC, Navarro family[?] and one of the afore mentioned engine connections. Am I getting close?
Dan
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The Navarro puzzle piece was critical in getting to the AMC part. of the solultion.
Dusenberg is also part of the solution.
You are on the brink of solving this puzzle!
What is the connection between AMC and Duesenberg?
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both dead? ???
;D I dunno maybe it was their respective first tries
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Could it be George Mason? I know that he worked for several car companies before he set up AMC, and Mason was a forerunner to Duesenberg...so, is that the connection?
Dan
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Here's a connection between AMC and Duesenberg.
AMC is now owned by Chrysler.
The 1966 Duesenberg show car was powered by a Chrysler engine and based off of the Imperial chassis.
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Duesenberg had the Mormon Meteor.
Former AMC president/politician George Romney was a Mormon?
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You kill me.
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Hey, c'mon...
I listed 2 famous brands, and one famous family and connected them all! That's gotta count for something!
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Actually, that was a compliment. As obscure as the connection is that I'm looking for, you trumped it!
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SWEET! :thumbsup:
I actually thought I might have nailed it with the mormon reference!
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There is another AMC / Duesenberg angle...
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Could the engines have been built in the same factory?
Dan
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No.
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Does it have to do with Glen Prey?
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To the best of my knowledge, no.
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http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jan2006/bw20060131_605519.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_A._Teague#American_Motors
(http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/01/duesenberg/image/08.jpg)
Jeff Teague is in charge of design on the new Duesenberg Torpedo. His father was Vice President of design at American Motors. He influenced the design of many of American Motors' cars.
If you click that wikipedia link, and scroll all the way down to the bottom, you'll find a connection to Mormon George Romney, making the connection to the Duesenberg Mormon Meteor... :nana: I still say that should count!!! :lmao:
For what it's worth, I think the Kline Kar is way more sexy than the Torpedo.
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Well, it seems these "connections" puzzles can and do have more than one solution. I've given "solved" points to each puzzler who linked both cars.
The solution I was going for is this:
Brickmaker Johan Heinrich Düsenberg emigrated to America in 1866. His wife Katrine Henigete Düsenberg, maiden name Naken, followed him 2 years later. At the age of 17 Fred Duesenberg founded a bike shop. His brother Augie ran a similar shop in Garner, Iowa. In 1902 Fred started a career as technical manager of development and as a test driver at the Rambler car factory. In 1910 Fred presented his first racing car. In 1913 the DUESENBERG MOTOR COMPANY was founded. Among other venues, Duesenberg cars raced in the Indianapolis 500.
The first effort to qualify a car at Indianapolis with a Rambler-descendant AMC powerplant began in 1968. Barney Navarro, an automotive engineer, inventor and builder, decided to build an Indy car that would use a 199 CID Rambler six cylinder engine. It all began when a customer of Navarro's wanted to build a six cylinder turbocharged Indy car. After evaluating the six's that where being built at the time the AMC engine was the one judged to be up to the task. The 199 has seven main bearings and eight counter weights as well as half inch head bolts.
One year into the project Navarro had the little Rambler engine set up to produce 550 horsepower! The carburetors were a source of trouble and eventually were replaced with a custom fuel injection system. The 199 proved to be very reliable during testing and suffered no internal problems. By the end of the program the little six was making 600 horsepower! Before the project ended AMC would become the backer of the car and give much needed factory support. The car may not have won the Indianapolis 500 but it helped to generate factory support within AMC and helped pave the way for the AMC V-8 Indy Car program that was to follow several years later.
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Dang, these car guys are an incestuous bunch! Seems once you have it in your blood, you'll work just about anywhere! ;D
Nice puzzle Karn! I enjoy the multiple Bacon pathways because it shows not just an interesting slice of history, but the resourcefulness and knowledge of the people here. Very impressive.
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Well, it seems these "connections" puzzles can and do have more than one solution. I've given "solved" points to each puzzler who linked both cars.
The solution I was going for is this:
Brickmaker Johan Heinrich Düsenberg emigrated to America in 1866. His wife Katrine Henigete Düsenberg, maiden name Naken, followed him 2 years later. At the age of 17 Fred Duesenberg founded a bike shop. His brother Augie ran a similar shop in Garner, Iowa. In 1902 Fred started a career as technical manager of development and as a test driver at the Rambler car factory. In 1910 Fred presented his first racing car. In 1913 the DUESENBERG MOTOR COMPANY was founded. Among other venues, Duesenberg cars raced in the Indianapolis 500.
The first effort to qualify a car at Indianapolis with a Rambler-descendant AMC powerplant began in 1968. Barney Navarro, an automotive engineer, inventor and builder, decided to build an Indy car that would use a 199 CID Rambler six cylinder engine. It all began when a customer of Navarro's wanted to build a six cylinder turbocharged Indy car. After evaluating the six's that where being built at the time the AMC engine was the one judged to be up to the task. The 199 has seven main bearings and eight counter weights as well as half inch head bolts.
One year into the project Navarro had the little Rambler engine set up to produce 550 horsepower! The carburetors were a source of trouble and eventually were replaced with a custom fuel injection system. The 199 proved to be very reliable during testing and suffered no internal problems. By the end of the program the little six was making 600 horsepower! Before the project ended AMC would become the backer of the car and give much needed factory support. The car may not have won the Indianapolis 500 but it helped to generate factory support within AMC and helped pave the way for the AMC V-8 Indy Car program that was to follow several years later.
^^^ That's what I meant to say... :lmao: