Connections! Puzzle #1 Solved! Duesenberg / Rambler / AMC / Indy 500

[Otto Puzzell]

If you look at these two competition automobiles, the venue for which they were designed is relatively easy to discern. However, it's the engines of the two cars which are connected, over many decades, via one famous family and two famous brands. Can you make the connection?

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Thanks!

[MG]

What an interesting new thread idea!   Bravo!   

Things which are obvious to you are less so to me, so let's begin with the location. Obviously, it is on a roadway somewhere, which brings to mind the Nurburgring, but could be any one of hundreds of locations before dedicated race tracks became the vogue. Could possibly be the Isle of Man, as well, or even the main thoroughfare from Paris to Lyon 70 years ago! 

As to the engineer, there is a thought tugging at my brain........no, actually, that's the cat chewing my leg in anticipation of an outdoors excursion!   

[Tifosi]

It isn't Goodwood, is it?


Dan

[Otto Puzzell]

No, the venue is in the US.

[MG]

Runinating over my scramble eggs, it occured to me that the venue is NOT Europe but rather the US.  KU has since confirmed this, but I really did think of it before I saw his reply.

Its still a road course, of course, and the most famous road course in the US of A is at Watkins Glen, on the shores of Lake Cayuga. Which gives rise to this satirical anomoly espoused by college students at a certain Ivory League college located hell and gone from anywhere in the wilds of New Hampshire that goes something like this:

Far above Cayuga's waters, there's an awful smell.
Some say its Cayuga's waters, others say Cornell.   

But I digress.....

The Glen is my guess, although Bridgehampton is a pretty good alternate choice.

[Otto Puzzell]

OK - this is getting off track (pun intended). I'm looking for the goods on the engines in these two cars, not where they raced. 

The cars pictured were both built for the Indy 500.

[Arthur Dent]

Maybe both powered by steam or diesel engines?

[Otto Puzzell]

No, both were Otto cycle, spark-ignition engines.  .

[MG]

Does the name "Miller" have anything to do with it?  Offenhauser would be too easy.

BTW, it is my fault for the off course excursion. I thought if we could isolate the track that the answer to the main question might come into clearer focus. But in this case, I thought wrong.  And not for the first time today, either!   

[Otto Puzzell]

The brands and the family I'm looking for are neither Miller nor Offenhauser.

[Tifosi]

The cars look to be about 50 years apart.  I'm tempted to say that maybe Louis or Arthur Chevrolet was involved, most likely Louis.  He was involved with the Frontenac auto, which, as I recall, had Ford origins, so  I'll guess that th first car has an early Frontenac engine  The second car could be the last of the normally aspirated Fords that ran at Indy in the late 1960's.  I believe that Bob Hurt drove the last one of those in 1969, and was bumped.  It's a long shot, I know...


Dan

[Otto Puzzell]

An excellent guess, but no.

[Tifosi]

is the second car a Repco-Brabham?


Dan

[Tifosi]

OK - this is getting off track (pun intended). I'm looking for the goods on the engines in these two cars, not where they raced. 

The cars pictured were both built for the Indy 500.

Did either car actually qualify for the race?  I can't find any info on the #50 in any of my Indy books...it's obviously a late '60's car. and i can't find any indication that a car with thatr particular number actually ran in a race at the Speedway during that time.  I checked from 1965-1971.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Another wild shot...could the #50 be the STP Plymouth that Art Pollard drove in practice in the late '60's?  And could the ##6 car be a Maxwell?  I'd be at a loss as the the famous family, however...but Plymouth/Maxwell...Maxwell, Chrysler...I'm really stumped, and Indy cars are kinda my specialty...



Dan

[GTO48]

OK - this is getting off track (pun intended). I'm looking for the goods on the engines in these two cars, not where they raced. 

The cars pictured were both built for the Indy 500.

Did either car actually qualify for the race?  I can't find any info on the #50 in any of my Indy books...it's obviously a late '60's car. and i can't find any indication that a car with thatr particular number actually ran in a race at the Speedway during that time.  I checked from 1965-1971.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Another wild shot...could the #50 be the STP Plymouth that Art Pollard drove in practice in the late '60's?  And could the ##6 car be a Maxwell?  I'd be at a loss as the the famous family, however...but Plymouth/Maxwell...Maxwell, Chrysler...I'm really stumped, and Indy cars are kinda my specialty...



Dan

Ok, if that second car is a Plymouth, or some other Mopar derived powerplant, I think I can make at least *a* connection to car #1.  Wether or not it is the one you're after I don't know.

[Otto Puzzell]

is the second car a Repco-Brabham?


Dan

No

[Otto Puzzell]

OK - this is getting off track (pun intended). I'm looking for the goods on the engines in these two cars, not where they raced. 

The cars pictured were both built for the Indy 500.

Did either car actually qualify for the race?  I can't find any info on the #50 in any of my Indy books...it's obviously a late '60's car. and i can't find any indication that a car with thatr particular number actually ran in a race at the Speedway during that time.  I checked from 1965-1971.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Another wild shot...could the #50 be the STP Plymouth that Art Pollard drove in practice in the late '60's?  And could the ##6 car be a Maxwell?  I'd be at a loss as the the famous family, however...but Plymouth/Maxwell...Maxwell, Chrysler...I'm really stumped, and Indy cars are kinda my specialty...



Dan

The car was unsucsessful in qualifying for the 500. The years you list are the correct era for this car, which is not a Plymouth.

The older car is not a Maxwell.

[GTO48]

I know exactly what the older car is, and what it's engine is.  But I'm struggling with the connection between the two.

Can I get an ID point for the early car? 

[Otto Puzzell]

no.

[GTO48]

Well in an effort to get this ball rolling, and the fact that it's driving me absolutely bonkers... 

The older car is a Kline-Duesenberg "Jimmy Junior" circa 1914.  Named after James Kline.  It is my best assumption that because it's got a Duesenberg connection, it must be Duesenberg powered.  Besides, if you were building an Indy car in those days, what better powerplant could you choose from?  The car recently sold at auction.

http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/magazine/3500.asp?id=11844

Scroll down about half way to read about it.

Now can someone tell me what that other blasted car is???!!! 

[Otto Puzzell]

Well done - you've cracked a key piece of the puzzle.

[Tifosi]

Is the 1st car the Kleinart car that Art Kline drove at Indy in 1915?


Dan

[GTO48]

Is the 1st car the Kleinart car that Art Kline drove at Indy in 1915?


Dan

I wondered that too, but I couldn't find any documentation to support it.

Doesn't mean it was or wasn't though...

[Otto Puzzell]

Is the 1st car the Kleinart car that Art Kline drove at Indy in 1915?


Dan

I don't know, but it's not important to the quiz at hand.

[GTO48]

Is there a connection that both cars are now owned by the same family?