20 points - 20 cars
Some forgotten by history,some prototypes and home made cars.
Do not be surprised to find brands that you never heard about...
Have fun hunters!
Second group:
Neat theme - nicely done! :)
Thank you! :) and Up!
I am at a complete loss. This is a very interesting puzzle, but so far I was not able to identify any car. One question: not all of them are from USA, right?
You´re right,I´m glad you like it!
Americans? Not all.... ;) without connections between them,just to show the evolution.
su19: could that be a Germain from Belgium?
su4 is a "Cote" driven by Cyril De Vère at the 1912 Grand Prixe by the Automobile Club of France
#19 not a Germain...and yes! it´s a 1912 Cote!
apg9 is rather non-descriptive, but could that be a Star tourer?
No,
apg1: 1902 Binney-Burnham Runabout. Built by The Binney & Burnham Co., Boston, MA, 1901-1902
Yes! ;)
#1:1902 Binney-Burnham Runabout.Built by The Binney & Burnham Co., Boston, MA, 1901-1902 - pnegyesi
#2:1905 Rossel 28-35HP carrossée par Th.Botiaux et cie - Paul Jaray
#3:1916 Scripps Booth Town Car by Cole & Woop - pnegyesi
#4:1912 Cote driven by Cyril De Vère at the 1912 Grand Prixe by the Automobile Club of France - pnegyesi
#5:1906 Chaboche Steamer - Paul Jaray
#6:1921 JL Tourer - pnegyesi
#7:1919 Liberty 2 Door Enclosed Coupe - Paul Jaray
#8:1920 Tuar 12HP Type B3 - Paul Jaray
#9:1919 Pan Model A Touring - pnegyesi
#10:1923 Cole Sportster Sedan - pnegyesi
#11:1908 Protos 17-35PS Landaulet by Neuss - pnegyesi
#12:1908 Grieve 20HP - The first Peruvian automobile - pnegyesi
#13:1922 Hands 10/20 - Paul Jaray
#14:1947 Gilda made by Jorge Agnew - pnegyesi
#15:1910 Florentia (Prototipo?) - pnegyesi
#16:1911 Cunningham 4cyl. Roadster - Paul Jaray
#17:1907 Alba 40-45HP from Trieste - pnegyesi
#18:1908 Chase Model F - pnegyesi
#19:1908 Levrault Type D - pnegyesi
#20:1921-22 BOB Automobil Gesellschaft - Paul Jaray
pnegyesi : 13 points
Paul Jaray : 7 points
apg10: 1923 Cole Sportster Sedan
Right again!
apg9: Maybe a Saxon Six?
Not a Saxon..
I can't escape the feeling that No20 is German. Maybe a Protos?
Yes....It´s German ;) but not a Protos....
su19: Cottereau voiturette?
su20: could that be a Stoewer Type D?
Quote from: pnegyesi on November 06, 2009, 01:00:41 PM
su19: Cottereau voiturette?
su20: could that be a Stoewer Type D?
No & No....
su20: then maybe a NAG D-type?
apg6: cca 1920 JL tourer
;)
Pro guess
#5 - Chaboche Steamer
#8 - Tuar 12hp Type B3 1920
#20 - Bob Automobil-Gesellshaft
Yes! Congratulations!
No3 is a Scripps-Booth Model D Town Car with body by George W Cole in 1916
No9: could that be a Monroe touring car?
Yes! and no....
Questions on some of the remaining cars:
su13: is it a restored car or a self-built car from old parts
su14: is this based on a British car?
su15: is this French?
I know one question at a time, but as there are 10 cars left, if possible I'd spare some time for us :)
No,no and no..... Clue: number #14! is a self-built car from old parts,with a special name ;)
#2 - Rossel 28-35HP 1905
Good! ;)
#7- Is that a Liberty?
#16 - Is that a Parry?
You´re right with the first guess! Which model and year?
The second guess... :shakehead:
Liberty was active from 1916 till 1923.
Those wheels tell me that this one should be of 1923 and in that year the Model 10-D six was available in 7 body stiles, 2 of them coupe:
Liberty Six Model 10-D Commander Coupe and Cavalier Coupe.
I´ll give you the point because of this beautiful answer! wow! probable my info is wrong.I have it as
1919 Liberty 2 Door Enclosed Coupe.
Your source is right.
All the pics I found of Liberty cars had artillery wheels unless a model from 1923 (a coupe different from the puzzle one).
The way the hood meets the windshield, however is pretty much like a pre1921 model, because the later ones had a perpendicolar intersection of the windshield and additional lights.
That make this a Liberty Model 10-B Enclosed Coupe of 1919, then.
#16 - Cole Sixty ?
No sorry :-\ but you know now the right letter ;)
#16 Should I avoid Cameron, Cartercar, Chadwick, Chalmers, Clark, Columbia, Correja, Courier, Crawford, Cunningham (all of these have a model in their 1912\13 lineup like that) and guess directly Cutting, Model A-40 perhaps?
Not this one,sorry...clue: last but not least! ;D
Do you mean a Crawford 11-30 roadster from 1911?
:doh:
Is that a "I said too much, you got it!" od a "Nope!" reply?
In the meantime: Cunningham Model J?
:D It was a nope hehehe
And yes! It´s a Cunningham!
No19: is that a Sigma from Switzerland?
13 maybe a Citroen C3?
No & No,sorry :-\
su17: is it American?
No,sorry.
European?
Yes ;)
British?
su14: Gilda. The story was published in a Brazilian blog: Albert Cagnani's grandfather built this car around 1940
Quote from: pnegyesi on May 25, 2010, 01:13:38 PM
su14: Gilda. The story was published in a Brazilian blog: Albert Cagnani's grandfather built this car around 1940
Yes!! Congratulations! This was one of the most difficult :applause:
su17 it´s not British.
su19: could that be a National?
Not a National
su19: is it French?
su 19 : Delaunay-Belleville
No,sorry....but it´s from the same country ;)
Su19: maybe a CLC?
No19: Le Gui?
Let's join our forces.
So far we know:
#9 - Star - Saxon - Monroe
#11
#12
#13 - Not restored or selbuilt - Citroen
#15 - Not French
#17 - European - not British
#18
#19 - French - Cottereau - National - Delaunay-Belleville - CLC
#9 - USA?
#11 - European?
#12 - USA?
#13 - GB?
#15 - USA?
#17 - Germany?
#18 - USA? (is this car still dispayed in that Museum?)
#19 - Do the other cars of this brand have a round radiator?
I made only one guess for each car, I hope it's fine...
No problem!
#9 - Star - Saxon - Monroe - Geronimo...
#11
#12
#13 - Not restored or selbuilt - Citroen ( Not a Citroën,wrong country and this car still exist )
#15 - Not French - Yes,not French
#17 - European - not British - not British,the same country of #15
#18
#19 - French - Cottereau - National - Delaunay-Belleville - CLC - Le Gui
#9 - USA? YES
#11 - European? YES
#12 - USA? NO
#13 - GB? YES
#15 - USA? NO
#17 - Germany? NO
#18 - USA? (is this car still displayed in that Museum?) The car is American but it´s in a foreign museum
#19 - Do the other cars of this brand have a round radiator? I don´t know...this is the only car of this brand that I found
I hope it can help!
No19: Le Gui?
No13: Belsize-Bradshaw?
OK, let's work on this...
(#19 is french, unless I misread your previous clues...)
#9 - Nothing unusual about this...was it a short lived maker, like Alter?
#11- from a nation with (relatively) few makes, like Belgium or Switzerland?
#12- Europe?
#13- Hands?
#15- GB?
#17- GB?
#9 - East Coast?
#11 - Swiss?
#12 - French?
#13 - PJ - congratulations! It is a Hands 10/20. How did you find it? Oh, well :)
#15 - European?
#17 - Belgium?
#18 - Is it in a Fench museum?
Yes,number #19 is French.
#9 - Nothing unusual about this...was it a short lived maker, like Alter? Not an Alter but it´s a short lived car.
#11- from a nation with (relatively) few makes, like Belgium or Switzerland? No...his brother is very "famous" !!!
#12- Europe? No! ;D
#13- Hands? Yes!!!! It´s a Hands!! Nice!
#15- GB? No
#17- GB? No
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 08, 2010, 11:39:23 AM
#15 - European? Yes
#17 - Belgium? No
#18 - Is it in a French museum? No....
No12: is it from Australia?
No18: Is it in a UK museum?
I'll keep note of the guesses..
#9 - USA , short lived car
#11- European Belgium or Switzerland ...his brother is very "famous"
#12- Not European and not American
#15 - European - Not British - not German - not French - the same country of #17
#17 - European - not British - not German - not French - the same country of #15
#18- USA - not in a French or American Museum
#19 - French - Cottereau - National - Delaunay-Belleville - CLC - Le Gui
#12: Comet from Canada?
#15 & 17: Belgium?
No 15/17: Swiss?
No12: is it from Australia?
No18: Is it in a UK museum?
Quote from: Paul Jaray on June 08, 2010, 11:51:51 AM
I'll keep note of the guesses..
#9 - USA , short lived car
#11- European Belgium or Switzerland ...his brother is very "famous"
#12- Not European and not American
#15 - European - Not British - not German - not French - the same country of #17
#17 - European - not British - not German - not French - the same country of #15
#18- USA - not in a French or American Museum
#19 - French - Cottereau - National - Delaunay-Belleville - CLC - Le Gui
#12: Comet from Canada? Not from Canada
#15 & 17: Belgium? No
Nice board of clues! ;)
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 08, 2010, 11:54:06 AM
No 15/17: Swiss? No
No12: is it from Australia? No
No18: Is it in a UK museum? No
No12: Japanese?
No15: Czechoslovakia?
No and No
No15/17: Dutch?
No12 we're running out of continents. Not North America, Europe, Australia or Japan. South America?
#9 - USA , short lived car
#11- European - not Belgium or Switzerland ...his brother is very "famous"
#12- Not Europe , USA, Canada, Australia, Japan
#15 - European - Not GB - not Germany - not France - not Belgium - Not Swiss - Not CZ - the same country of #17
#17 - European - not GB - not Germany - not France - not Belgium - Not Swiss - not CZ -the same country of #15
#18- USA - not in a French or American or British Museum
#19 - French - not Cottereau - National - Delaunay-Belleville - CLC - Le Gui
#15 & 17 - Italy? (#17 seems like a FLAG)
#11 - The maker's brother?
#12 - South America?
Yes! Italy! for number #15 & #17!
Not the maker´s brother
Yes!! South America!
#17 - Flag?
#15 - SPA? ZUST?
#15 - Zust?
No12: Anasagasti?
No and No
No12: From Brasil?
Argentina?
#9 - USA , short lived car
#11- European - not Belgium or Switzerland ...his brother is very "famous"
#12- South America - not Brasil - not Anasagasti
#15 - Italian - Not SPA - not Zust
#17 - Italian - Not Flag
#18- USA - not in a French or American or British Museum
#19 - French - not Cottereau - National - Delaunay-Belleville - CLC - Le Gui
#12 - argentina?
Not from Argentina
No12: Venezuela?
#12 - Uruguay?
#15 - Itala?
No and No
19 : Georges Roy ?
No12: Peru?
No 12: "Automóvil Grieve conducido por su creador" - Juan Alberto Grieve on his self-built car
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 08, 2010, 02:52:03 PM
No 12: "Automóvil Grieve conducido por su creador" - Juan Alberto Grieve on his self-built car
:thumbsup: That´s it! Congratulations
I thought No15 will be an Alba, but it turned out that No17 is an Alba, which was made in Trieste!
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 08, 2010, 02:56:33 PM
I thought No15 will be an Alba, but it turned out that No17 is an Alba, which was made in Trieste!
Yes! It´s an Alba! Another one, :applause: :applause:
Congratulations! ;)
Edit: BTW Trieste was officially annexed to the Kingdom of Italy only with the Treaty of Rapallo in 1920.So forgive me for the wrong clue :-\
Technically it was not Italian... :-\
EDIT: I wouldn't have find it in any case.... ;D
This is the Interior of the Alba Automobile Factory in Zaule, Trieste ( Austria ) :bag:
To make matters worse there are some people who consider Alba to be of Hungarian origin. It is silly, but that's why I got to know Alba and considered it :)
Last question for today: No11 is a subsidiary of a more famous brand?
Don´t forget the French Alba made by Constructions Métallurgiques, Usines Alba, Suresnes, Seine between 1913 and 1928 :lmao:
#11 : No,another picture :
...and the Portoguese one?
#9 - USA , short lived car - was it made in the East Coast?
#11- European - not Belgium or Switzerland ...his brother is very "famous" - French again?
#15 - Italian - Not SPA - not Zust - Was this brand active for more than 5 years?
#18- USA - not in a French or American or British Museum. - Was this brand active for more than 5 years?
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 08, 2010, 11:46:59 PM
#9 - USA , short lived car - was it made in the East Coast? No
#11- European - not Belgium or Switzerland ...his brother is very "famous" - French again? No
#15 - Italian - Not SPA - not Zust - Was this brand active for more than 5 years? Yes,I believe so.
#18- USA - not in a French or American or British Museum. - Was this brand active for more than 5 years?
Yes
No9: West Coast?
No11: German?
No18: is it in a Swedish museum?
#9 : No.
#11 : Yes!
#18 : No.
apg11: Is that a C Benz Söhne?
No11 is a 1908 Protos
Now,we have four left. Two American, one Italian and a French.
A guess: no15 - is that a Florentia?
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 11, 2010, 10:09:52 AM
No11 is a 1908 Protos
Now,we have four left. Two American, one Italian and a French.
A guess: no15 - is that a Florentia?
YES YES YES & YES!!! ;D Nice!
Edit: This is the Brazilian Protos.His famous brother is the New York to Paris one.
No 19 : Léon Bollée ?
No18: was this particular car built between 1915-1918?
No19: was this particular car built between 1908-1910?
No and Yes.
No19: maybe a Werner?
No 19 : Cottin-Desgouttes ?
No 19 : Brasier ?
No19: Le Joyeuse?
No and No
#19: French, 1908-1910, not Cottereau - National - Delaunay-Belleville - CLC - Le Gui - Georges Roy - Léon Bollée - Werner - Cottin-Desgouttes - Brasier - Le Joyeuse
Gladiator?
Quote from: Paul Jaray on June 13, 2010, 03:04:05 PM
#19: French, 1908-1910, not Cottereau - National - Delaunay-Belleville - CLC - Le Gui - Georges Roy - Léon Bollée - Werner - Cottin-Desgouttes - Brasier - Le Joyeuse
Gladiator?
Nope
Single name, like Gregoire, or double, like La Buire?
Quote from: Paul Jaray on June 13, 2010, 03:22:38 PM
Single name, like Gregoire, or double, like La Buire?
Single name
Was the make still active after WW1 ?
This is the only car of this brand that you found, you wrote.
I'm sure you would find a pic of Alcyon, Aries, Bedelia, Berliet, Bugatti, Decauville, Delage, Delahaye, Hotchkiss, Mathis, Serpollet, Renault, Peugeot, Mors, Motobloc, Unic, Vermorel,...
Is it a name, like Barre', or just letters, like DFP, DSPL, DSR, ENV, FL, GC, MP, RIP, SPO?
Quote from: Paul Jaray on June 13, 2010, 03:57:35 PM
This is the only car of this brand that you found, you wrote.
I'm sure you would find a pic of Alcyon, Aries, Bedelia, Berliet, Bugatti, Decauville, Delage, Delahaye, Hotchkiss, Mathis, Serpollet, Renault, Peugeot, Mors, Motobloc, Unic, Vermorel,...
Is it a name, like Barre', or just letters, like DFP, DSPL, DSR, ENV, FL, GC, MP, RIP, SPO?
It´s a name,not just letters.
Alcyon, Aries, Barré, Bedelia, Berliet, Bugatti, Decauville, Delage, Delahaye, Hotchkiss, Mathis, Serpollet, Renault, Peugeot, Mors, Motobloc, Unic, Vermorel
Galliot?
Or is the name shorter that that?
Quote from: Paul Jaray on June 13, 2010, 04:09:04 PM
Galliot?
Or is the name shorter that that?
No for both ;)
Baillereau?
Porthos?
or is the name longer than that?
Quote from: Paul Jaray on June 13, 2010, 04:21:02 PM
Porthos?
or is the name longer than that?
No and longer than that,
Cornilleau?
I have 9 names left for today:
Westinghouse?
Quote from: Paul Jaray on June 13, 2010, 04:30:52 PM
I have 9 names left for today:
Westinghouse?
;D
Not a Westinghouse.
I have a pic of Jenatzy, riding a Mercedes at the Gordon Bennett Cup in 1906 that looks quite close..but..
Marlborough?
Not the same car,and not a Marlborough.
I really don't like this way, but...is there a 'T' in the name?
Quote from: Paul Jaray on June 13, 2010, 04:45:16 PM
I really don't like this way, but...is there a 'T' in the name?
Yes! :nod:
Cohendet?
Not a Cohendet.
I'm quite sure it's not a Violette or an Utilitaire and the Berthier was a La Buire....
I'll have to pass....
The car should be in the 1908-1910 range, the maker in the § - 1915 range...was the maker active for more than 10 years?
Not a Violette,Utilitaire or a Berthier.
Don´t give up! :)
"was the maker active for more than 10 years?" No.
Is it featured in any books as a car maker, like the ones already mentioned, or was it just an entry for a race, named after a builder or a racer? (or both...)
Quote from: Paul Jaray on June 13, 2010, 05:17:55 PM
Is it featured in any books as a car maker, like the ones already mentioned, or was it just an entry for a race, named after a builder or a racer? (or both...)
It´s a car maker.This is a regular production one ( I think ) that was just an entry for a race.
Antoinette?
I have a bunch of candidates, but I'll not be online today so we'll see. Parent?
I've done my homework again, and a new list is ready:
9 names (again...) 2 are electric vehicles...1 is Nordenfeldt, and we have some pictures also here...
Demeester?
Duhanot?
Not a Parent, Nordenfeldt,Demeester or Duhanot.
It´s not an electric automobile.
It's french...a regular manufacturer (not a designer, engineer, or a selfbuilt car), active for less than 10 years, in the 1908-1910 range but before WW1 end.
The name is a single name, 7 letters or more, with a 'T'...
Is this one the only model available?
I don´t think so because it´s a Type ( Letter ) something automobile.The only picture that I found for this make.
Siscart ....Type Course maby?
Quote from: Paul Jaray on June 14, 2010, 10:28:23 AM
It's french...a regular manufacturer (not a designer, engineer, or a selfbuilt car), active for less than 10 years, in the 1908-1910 range but before WW1 end.
The name is a single name, more than 7 letters, with a 'T'...
Is this one the only model available?
Sorry, my fault...
No problem!
Not a Siscart ....It was not built for race so not a Course type.
It´s a letter name.
It is a Levrault Type D, 1908 - with apologies to PJ
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 14, 2010, 01:24:41 PM
It is a Levrault Type D, 1908 - with apologies to PJ
Yes it´s! Congratulations :applause:
Now only two cars remaining,both American.
no9: anything outstanding on this car? its engine, its creator, anything?
no18: was this made before 1910?
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 14, 2010, 01:32:57 PM
no9: anything outstanding on this car? its engine, its creator, anything?
no18: was this made before 1910?
No and Yes.
no18: is this museum located in Europe?
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 14, 2010, 01:37:05 PM
no18: is this museum located in Europe?
Not in Europe.
in North America?
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 14, 2010, 01:43:36 PM
in North America?
Not in North America...This museum no longer exists :-\
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 14, 2010, 01:24:41 PM
It is a Levrault Type D, 1908 - with apologies to PJ
No need to apologise, it was a fair match and you did great!
This Levrault is not featured in any book but in the 'Guide de l'automobile francaise' that is not yet in my index...so far...
#9 - Single name?
Yes a single name!
Was this maker part of a group (big-3, Durant, etc) or connected with one or more brands?
when it existed, was this museum located in Europe or North America?
Quote from: Paul Jaray on June 14, 2010, 02:51:26 PM
Was this maker part of a group (big-3, Durant, etc) or connected with one or more brands?
No.
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 14, 2010, 02:53:14 PM
when it existed, was this museum located in Europe or North America?
Not located in Europe or North America.
was this museum Australian?
South American museum?
Yes :)
hmm, was this museum in Brazil?
I think then that this car is a 1908 Chase
(http://www2.uol.com.br/bestcars/carros/classicos/ulbra/chase-1908.jpg)
Yes it´s a 1908 Chase Model F
Congratulations again!
There is another one like this around.
so only no9, a rather non-descriptive touring car is left. Are there many survivors left of this brand?
I believe that there are only two.
USA, single name, short lived, not made in the East or West Cost, not part of a group, only 2 left (probably).
Alter - Geronimo - Monroe - Saxon - Star
Was it active for more than 5 years?
No.
If needed I'll list all the non-East/West coast states. So let's start with the obvious: Michigan?
OK, I'll start the wild guesses:
Handley?
EDIT: I took the only make, short lived, less than 5 years, single name, not part of a group, with only 1 or 2 existing cars and made in a central state with a quite recognizeable feature: the handles on the headlamps :disbelief:
I'll follow Pal's strategy: Indiana?
Not Michigan or Indiana but it´s close!!
Not a Handley .
Ohio?
Not Ohio.
Illinois?
Wisconsin?
Not Wisconsin or Illinois.
Kentucky?
Missouri?
Not Missouri
Quote from: João on June 18, 2010, 12:05:23 PM
Not Michigan or Indiana but it´s close!!
Define close, please...
Iowa?
Hmm, then it is either on the East Coast or not close to Michigan and Illionis.
So is this state is to the "right" towards New York from Michigan?
Minnesota!
Well, it is not locked, so I put my generosity aside and tell you that it is a 1919 Pan Model A
Moore?
You´re right! This is the 1919 Pan Model A Touring Car from St. Cloud,MN.
Congratulations Pnegyesi and Paul Jaray! :applause: :applause: :applause:
Finnaly the last one of the "Automobile Evolution" group puzzle is solved! Great job guys :bow:
I had bad dreams about this puzzle so I am relieved that it has finally been solved :shiner:
Finally!
Pal, you are amazing! It's been really challenging...and I had my books at hand!
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 18, 2010, 01:27:58 PM
I had bad dreams about this puzzle so I am relieved that it has finally been solved :shiner:
Both of you! Amazing knowledge!
I was tired too ;D almost 10 pages!! :hyper:
Respect + !
Quite a puzzle. Are any of the pics modified to obscure names, etc.? If so, can the unmodified pics be posted? Thx.
Quote from: ftg3plus4 on June 18, 2010, 02:12:25 PM
Quite a puzzle. Are any of the pics modified to obscure names, etc.? If so, can the unmodified pics be posted? Thx.
Only the Cote picture! :)
Well done, gentlemen!
There are 4 Pans around,not 2 as I said before.