Please respond below if you know the make and model designation of this car.
One point for the right and complete answer!
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An estate for Experts
Moretti 1100 Wagon ( Giardiniera )
No.
1954 Fiat 1100 Giardinetta Viotti.
no. ???
You are right: this is not exactly the same car, but it's very very similar.
Let's try with a more organized approach... The body looks definitely as Viotti, but a detail is not coherent: the triangular emblem on the front fender. This could mean two other coachbuilders, as far as I know: Monterosa or Monviso. Is it made by one of them?
Yes!
It's a 50-50 guess, because I've no evidence of this car, but considering that Monviso was going to close in those years, I'll say Monterosa. Is it Monterosa?
And is the Fiat 1100/103 the right base?
Your guesses are correct. All I'd liked to know now is the right designation.
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g106/pan1968/Gifs/Lock_64x64.png) Your puzzle till your next reply!
I dont't think it has a particular name: should just be Fiat 1100/103 giardinetta by Monterosa.
And can I ask your source, even by PM? I'd like go a little deeper and understand why is it so similar to the Viotti.
According to my source it has indeed a particular name.
I'll sent you a PM in a few minutes..
Interesting, but I give up: it's not in my sources ??? so the point is still available for somebody who knows this car.
I can give you the source, but then you're out of the race.
Open again!
1955 Fiat 1100 103 Monterosa Moncalieri ?
Quote from: als15 on June 03, 2010, 08:05:02 AM
I'd like go a little deeper and understand why is it so similar to the Viotti.
I raised exactly the same questions on another forum a couple of weeks ago, but until now...no response
So the results of your investigation are more than welcome!
Nothing sure, but two guesses.
1st: Michelotti as the designer of both. It happened with quite all the 600M vans, that are absolutely identical, made by Accossato, Caprera, Viotti or others: for such an utility vehicle Michelotti sold the right of the design to many coachbuilders. But this one is not so "utility" and Viotti was very proud of its "Giardinettas".
2nd: same sub-supplier. Viotti was big and sometimes had other minor coachbuilders as bodywork sub-suppliers. Perhaps Monterosa did the car for Viotti and then re-proposed it slightly modified with its own brand.
Another note: apart from the game, I'm quite sure that the word "Moncalieri" comes from a misunderstanding. It's the small town near Turin were Monterosa was based and has very little sense in Italian language as a name for a car. I think that on the back of a press-photo there could have been a caption "Monterosa Moncalieri" as the address and somebody has misreported it.
@als15
Yes we'd discussed about it, but I gave you the reason why I decided to keep it that way... ;)
We see car makes allover the world (say Shanghai in China, Dessauer from Germany to the Seat Ibiza from Spain etc. etc.) take the names from cities.
Quote from: DeAutogids.nl on June 09, 2010, 05:39:56 PM
We see car makes allover the world (say Shanghai in China, Dessauer from Germany to the Seat Ibiza from Spain etc. etc.) take the names from cities.
Seat Malaga, Seat Marbella perhaps a bit more appropriate than Ibiza!
Morris Oxford, Austin Cambridge, Mercury Monterey etc etc - the list is endless!
Quote from: Allemano on June 09, 2010, 04:58:20 PM
@als15
Yes we'd discussed about it, but I gave you the reason why I decided to keep it that way... ;)
And I agree 100% with you: the puzzle solver is indeed who found the name you have in your source.
But now this is a good opportunity to discuss about the name of this car.
Of course I agree that there are several cars named after cities. What I mean is that the city should be somehow "worthy" of that. I'm taliking as an Italian native speaker: "Moncalieri" doesn't make any sense. But of course this is just a personal opinion. As I said to Allemano by PM (before the puzzle ended), I'd like to see the real source of that, but unfortunatley none of us has the original photo.
Quote from: Carnut on June 09, 2010, 06:12:05 PM
Quote from: DeAutogids.nl on June 09, 2010, 05:39:56 PM
We see car makes allover the world (say Shanghai in China, Dessauer from Germany to the Seat Ibiza from Spain etc. etc.) take the names from cities.
Seat Malaga, Seat Marbella perhaps a bit more appropriate than Ibiza!
Morris Oxford, Austin Cambridge, Mercury Monterey etc etc - the list is endless!
first thing that came to mind, though I drive a Leon now...
Moncalieri might sound a bit daft to an Italian but to us English-speakers it sounds great and typically Italian!
Quote from: Carnut on June 10, 2010, 06:05:05 AM
Moncalieri might sound a bit daft to an Italian but to us English-speakers it sounds great and typically Italian!
Not sure if it was marked for us...
Still, I understand Leon is not that great either...
@ Allemano
Maybe you can use this car in 'Cars And Places, Vol. III' :lmao:
(http://www.italyguide.com/database/foto_monumenti/492.jpg)
Quote from: 75america on June 11, 2010, 12:01:08 PM
@ Allemano
Maybe you can use this car in 'Cars And Places, Vol. III' :lmao:
(http://www.italyguide.com/database/foto_monumenti/492.jpg)
Brilliant! ;D
Quote from: als15 on June 09, 2010, 01:13:21 PM
Nothing sure, but two guesses.
1st: Michelotti as the designer of both. It happened with quite all the 600M vans, that are absolutely identical, made by Accossato, Caprera, Viotti or others: for such an utility vehicle Michelotti sold the right of the design to many coachbuilders. But this one is not so "utility" and Viotti was very proud of its "Giardinettas".
2nd: same sub-supplier. Viotti was big and sometimes had other minor coachbuilders as bodywork sub-suppliers. Perhaps Monterosa did the car for Viotti and then re-proposed it slightly modified with its own brand.
Another note: apart from the game, I'm quite sure that the word "Moncalieri" comes from a misunderstanding. It's the small town near Turin were Monterosa was based and has very little sense in Italian language as a name for a car. I think that on the back of a press-photo there could have been a caption "Monterosa Moncalieri" as the address and somebody has misreported it.
I bumped on some info that the Fiat 1100 Giardinetta Viotti that you posted in reply #6 (2449) was bodied by Maggiora. This might support partly your 2nd theory, although it means that the same car must have been made by 2 different carrozzieri (Maggiora and Monterosa) for Viotti. Is that possible? Was that also common practice?
Also I would like to know what the exact involvement of Viotti and Maggiora was in this car project.
Same question for the Alfa Romeo 2000 Spider which is known as a Carrozzeria Touring product, but it was 'bodied' by Maggiora, whatever that means.
For major coachbuilders was a common practice to have sub-suppliers making part of the production.
Maggiora has been until the early 2000s one of the biggest. This firm has been established in 1925 by Arturo Maggiora as a "martelleria" (it means a workshop where artisans form the metal-sheets with a hammer).
Maggiora was specialized, in fact, in making the body-in-white and then its customers painted and mounted the rest of the vehicle.
Its relashionship with Viotti dates back to the origins, and Maggiora supported it for half a century.
The firm also made the body of a lot of other cars, like the Grand-Prix for Francis Lombardi, the Alfa Romeo 2000 and Lancia Flaminia for Touring, the Mangusta and Pantera for De Tomaso.
In the last years it made the Lancia Delta Evoluzione and the Fiat Barchetta (this time, the complete production, starting from the rolling-chassis received from Fiat) and several conversions of LCV for mail deilvery and public servieces.
It closed in 2003.
In this picture, it's difficlult to position Monterosa: customer of Maggiora (with something similar to the Giardinetta Viotti) or sub-supplier of Viotti in competition with Maggiora. I'd say the first, but again no evidence and just personal feeling.
Is there an explanation why Maggiora never finished the cars completely themselves, and selling them with a Maggiora badge (As far as I know, only the Fiat Barchetta wears a Maggiora badge) instead of delivering body-in-white bodies to other coachbuilders? It would have given the firm a lot more prestige. Didn't they had the experience to finish the complete cars themselves? I think most difficult part in making the cars was the panel beating, but they had skilled workers to do that job...
I think it is a commercial choice. For sure a workshop able to make the body is also able to complete the whole car. But it's a different business approach: the bodies are already sold and is just a job without risk. On the other hand, building complete cars by themselves means also the problem to sell the cars.
However, a few times Maggiora did it: in the Nineties made and sold a line of "elaborata" on Fiat Panda, Uno and Tipo.
It's also very known, before the Barchetta, for the Panda Van, which was made for Fiat but carries Maggiora badges.