For a point who made this and what is special about it?
Phew, hang on in there Experts, this is the last one for the moment.
Tornado Fiat 600GT
Lotus Twincam powered.
Got it in one. Nice work.
What's going on here then?
Fiat 600D ( or Seat or Zastava ) with Alfa Romeo engine.
That engine look like Alfa 105 Series of 4 cilinders engine ( 1300/1600/1750/2000 ccm ), they all had same exterior dimensions but differend bore and stroke... I would guess, that this engine in this picture is a 2 liters
I'm told this is a repost, and it is because since I knew the car it has been given a fancy name and was solved under that, not what it actually is (was) when it was made and used in anger!
I shall answer Hemi 426 by saying that it's not an Alfa motor but, as he says, it is a Fiat 600
Looks like an Abarth 1000 TC to me.
Quote from: don on April 13, 2010, 11:56:08 AM
Looks like an Abarth 1000 TC to me.
Not Abarth.
David Render's Fiat 600D with a Ford 1500 twin-cam engine?
Quote from: woodinsight on May 16, 2010, 06:18:09 AM
David Render's Fiat 600D with a Ford 1500 twin-cam engine?
That's what I knew it as, so a point for you!
Modern name is said to be "Tornado Fiat 600 GT" and there was a thread under that name. Means nothing to me so I posted this and stood my ground when told it was a repost!
Quote from: Allan L on May 17, 2010, 03:49:51 PM
Means nothing to me so I posted this and stood my ground when told it was a repost!
Remind me to never try and help you again.... ::)
Yup, this car was one of a few conversions offered officially by Hertfordshire-based kit/sports GRP car maker Tornado towards the end of the marque's career, and sold as the Tornado Fiat 600 GT. David Render used to campaign his Tornado 600 GT frequently at the Brighton Speed Trials, as per the accompanying picture.
Call it what you like now, but I'm pretty sure David called it a Fiat-Ford on the entry forms.
In the excellent book on Tornado there is a brief chapter on this car, including a period b/w ad from Triple CCC magazine calling it the Tornado Fiat 600 GT. I'll scan it on shortly when I'm next at home.
Quote from: Allan L on May 17, 2010, 06:28:25 PM
Call it what you like now, but I'm pretty sure David called it a Fiat-Ford on the entry forms.
Are you sure, or pretty sure?
I'm surprised that you felt the need to " stand your ground" for the name Tornado, but declare the puzzle solved for Fiat-Ford.
Because you remembered it as Lotus-Fiat and Fiat-Lotus when you replied to my P/M in Nov 09.
Anyway, this cant be the first time a cars name has been in question on this Forum.
You'd hope there are better ways of solving those misteries than standing ones ground....
I remember attending Brighton Speed Trials back in the 1960s with a friend of mine who was competing against David Render in the Fiat 600D-Lotus TwinCam.
We got to know him quite well then. Although DR's Fiat originally had a 1500cc engine, I think it was later modified or replaced by an 1850cc. Awesome machine!
I'm almost certain it was never called Tornado in those days.
It's a simple solution. Type either David Render Fiat 600 or Tornado Fiat 600 into Google, and the car comes up as a Tornado conversion, as it has been since this first conversion was made in 1965 under the Tornado GT banner.
The main photo used in this puzzle was taken on the Tornado Club stand at the annual 'Specials' day at Burford in the Cotswolds, so it may be that David Render's car is a one-off, inspired by the original mid-1960s car, but very strange in that case that his car would be on the Tornado Club stand! Still, at the end of the day, it's only a puzzle...
I'm getting bored with this!
My memory of David and his cars is that, not something I read in a magazine or found on a dodgy internet site, but it is now 40-50 years ago and the detail is elusive.
In those days Tornado was a series of cars made in Rickmansworth, originally Ford E93A specials but later a rather better Talisman.
(http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/classic-car-images/tornado.jpg)
As for where the photo I used was taken, I expect I got it from David's current brochure in which he sets out the talks he does for his army charity (haven't got the brochure to hand, so can't check).
I don't have to do this, you know.
Quote from: Allan L on May 18, 2010, 03:34:07 AM
I'm getting bored with this!
Quote
I dont see what the problem is with having a discussion about this.
Or why it had to be postponed for about 6 months...
If you have personal knowledge of this car, its very possible that you are correct.
And what can be found on the 'net elsewhere is not.
But t seems to me, that everyone agrees that both threads in the Solved section are about the same car.
So we are only talking about what to call the Merged Thread ( because it seems logical that it will be...)
quote author=Allan L link=topic=10117.msg104813#msg104813 date=1274168047]
I don't have to do this, you know.
That is good to know...
And BTW... ;)
Since we are relying on memory, I have never heard anyone call a Lotus Twincam a Ford Twincam.
( many nicknames, but not Ford )
Did They?
Seems to me, it would lead to confusion with other Ford based engines with 2 overhead camshafts ( from FVA to Zetec, with everything inbetween )
( although, the lotus version was the first )
But it is possible that a 1500cc version was used instead of the much more common 1558 cc.
The very early version was 1500cc, and eventhough supposedly they were all accounted for in Elans and 23's, one could have found its way into the Fiat enginebay...
I agree with Allan L that this has become tiresome, but making comments like "not something I read in a magazine or found on a dodgy internet site" is rude, arrogant, disrespectful and not at all in keeping with the spirit of a mutually informative website such as AutoPuzzles. As I said, the 'something I read in a magazine' was a period mid-1960s advert by Tornado, marketing the Ford-powered car as the Tornado 600 GT. The car also appeared being tested in Autoposport and The Motor magazines in 1964. The car is also mentioned in the Tornado book co-written by one of the Company's founders with his sone David, as is the text below from the official Tornado website; not 'found on a dodgy internet site.'
AutoPuzzles should be an enjoyable and light-hearted site for all car enthusiasts to enjoy, and not taken too seriously. However, AutoPuzzles is also a hugely important historical record of the motor car that grows day-by-day, so accuracy is vital. The following summarised history of Tornado Cars from the guy that founded and ran the company surely therefore has some significance. Small-scale production of the 600 GT is confirmed half way down.
'The Typhoon sold well with over 300 produced and by 1960 were ready to expand the model range.The Thunderbolt, Tempest and the Sports brake were added. The same year saw Tornado Cars policy of motor sport involvement pay dividends when they won the 750 Motor Clubs' Six Hour Handicap Relay Race at Silverstone. December 1961 marked the introduction of the talisman GT, an attractive four seats sports saloon. This models specification being much influenced by new Director Colin Hextall. The team of Talisman gave the factory it's second victory in the Six Hour Relay Race in 1963. At it's peak Tornado Cars employed 60 people and was a major employer in the Mill End area. John Bekaert, a renowned racing driver at the time, bought the company in 1963. A new model was introduced, the Tornado Fiat 600D GT which went into limited production alongside the Talisman. However, quality production of cars came to an end in 1964. A new owner, "Bert" Wood, planned relocation to Devon or Scotland and to restart production, this did not happen however and subsequently built the company up to be a well respected body work repair specialist. A tradition carried on by his son Alan until closure in 1986. The Uxbridge Rd site is now owned by Fairway Tyre Services who occupy a modern building which they have named "Tornado House" as a tribute to these exciting cars.'
Let's all just get along.
Really!
I couldn't agree more. :)
Quote from: Djetset on May 18, 2010, 06:46:30 PM
As I said, the 'something I read in a magazine' was a period mid-1960s advert by Tornado, marketing the Ford-powered car as the Tornado 600 GT. The car also appeared being tested in Autoposport and The Motor magazines in 1954.
Sorry if the pseudonymous "Djetset" has been upset.
Sometimes I forget that we are not all native English users on this site, and perhaps I don't always express myself clearly enough.
So often we find people on this site using books, magazines and internet sites as evidence regardless of whether they understand what they quote and I thought we were in that sort of mire again. My understanding was that Tornado Cars Ltd was founded by Bill Woodhouse and Anthony Bullen in about 1958 and sold on in 1963 at the end of the Talisman run. I think I remember the company as a repairing firm, but that was only because it was a landmark for the left turn taken to avoid Rickmansworth and Watford when travelling back from Heathrow.
If you tell me that it really was the same Tornado that's fine, but I doubt the car could have been tested in 1954 as
(a) Fiat didn't produce the 600 until 1955
(b) Ford introduced the 105E in 1960 and the Lotus twin-cam based on the 116E was first seen in 1962 and wasn't a production unit for several years.
Since appearently this discussion is still open, please allow me one more question.
( I'm here to learn, afterall...)
Could you tell me what this is, in the Pic you posted?
Could it be one of these?
Merged
Now let's put this squabble to bed, for good.
Agreed. I just want to add though that 1954 was a typing error; I did of course mean 1964, as per my other mid-1960s comments.
Now found that article from the mid-1960s I that mentioned earlier (below), plus a photo of the 600 GT included on the rear cover of the good Tornado Cars book 'Winds of Change' by Martyn Morgan Jones, which devotes a whole section to the Tornado Fiat 600 GT. Hopefully this now closes this case for good.
Quote from: Djetset on June 10, 2010, 05:25:25 PM
Now found that article from the mid-1960s I that mentioned earlier (below), plus a photo of the 600 GT included on the rear cover of the good Tornado Cars book 'Winds of Change' by Martyn Morgan Jones, which devotes a whole section to the Tornado Fiat 600 GT. Hopefully this now closes this case for good.
That magazine, whatever it was, seems to prove that we are both right! There was a Tornado Fiat 600 GT but it was not the same as the car we were discussing as it had a Cortina GT engine, not a twincam, and an engine bay rather differently arranged with diagonal reinforcing bars.
Quote from: Allan L on June 10, 2010, 07:48:38 PM
That magazine, whatever it was, seems to prove that we are both right! There was a Tornado Fiat 600 GT but it was not the same as the car we were discussing as it had a Cortina GT engine, not a twincam, and an engine bay rather differently arranged with diagonal reinforcing bars.
Not if you believe this piece of Info I found...
"Ken Smith - Sept. 2, 2009 Its good to see the car again. It's actually a Fiat 600 and made it's first public appearance at the 1964 Blackbush Drag Fest. Built by Tornado Cars it originally had the registration number BOM1 and sported an external radiator bolted to the front. A week later it turned up at Serck Radiators, Park Royal where, after a search of the shelves we sold Tornado a radiator originally made for the Dowty Turbocraft speedboat, small and neat enough to fit inside the front boot compartment, neatened things up nicely. There was a Ford powered Renault Dauphine at the same meeting cobbled together by the Lawrence tune mechanics and a Triumph Hearld bodied Jaguar XK150 that the Downton/Janspeed lads had made. I saw the TriJag some years later on Anglesea, wonder what happened to it? I've come over all nostalgic!"
Ken Smith, whoever he is, was talking about the David Render Twincam powered car.
( responding to the same pic...)
And to me, at this point, he has at least as much credibility as one Allan L...
So it looks like there were at least 3 cars.
The car on the trailer , the first pic of this Merged Thread ( FRD 62C ? )
1 BOM
Both with suicide doors, and the one with the later style doors & radiused wheelwells.
It would be cool if we could hear from Mr Render, or any of the other (ex) owners of these cars and hear what they have to say....