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Thanks!
That looks a lot like one I posted some time ago....
No results in the solved section...do you remeber the name?
If i may say so, it looks to me like a Renault AX from arround 1908
Good guess, but not that easy...
..and wellcome to Autopuzzles!
I don't think it is, it looks like an alternatively powered car I posted once...I can't find the pic.
You mean this? http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=2080.0
Not a Renault. ;)
Quote from: Paul Jaray on February 14, 2010, 05:57:06 PM
Good guess, but not that easy...
..and wellcome to Autopuzzles!
Thanks for the welcome :)
Correct me if I am wrong :D but is it a Clément Bayard by Gustave Adolphe Clément?
Could this be Darracq?
Quote from: Arunas on February 17, 2010, 12:19:41 PM
Could this be Darracq?
Oh yeah, that is also a good possibility
Was Darracq through the fusion with Talbot later not indirectly related to Clément who sold is cars in England under the name Talbot?
Correct me if I am wrong :D no expert yet ;)
Quote from: Amsterdam on February 17, 2010, 12:12:58 PM
Quote from: Paul Jaray on February 14, 2010, 05:57:06 PM
Good guess, but not that easy...
..and wellcome to Autopuzzles!
Thanks for the welcome :)
Correct me if I am wrong :D but is it a Clément Bayard by Gustave Adolphe Clément?
Not a Clement Bayard
Quote from: Arunas on February 17, 2010, 12:19:41 PM
Could this be Darracq?
You are not supposed to guess here, but not a Darraq ;)
Quote from: Amsterdam on February 17, 2010, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: Arunas on February 17, 2010, 12:19:41 PM
Could this be Darracq?
Oh yeah, that is also a good possibility
Was Darracq through the fusion with Talbot later not indirectly related to Clément who sold is cars in England under the name Talbot?
Correct me if I am wrong :D no expert yet ;)
I'm not an expert but what I know is that in the UK there were Sunbeam and Talbot, in France Darraq and Simca.
Around 1920 Darraq took over Sunbeam and Talbot and as a result there were:
In France Talbot (ex Darraq) that became Talbot-Lago.
In the UK Sunbeam-Talbot (ex Sunbeam and Talbot).
In 1958 Simca took over Talbot-Lago.
In 1963 Chrysler took over Simca and in 1967 Sunbeam-Talbot and we have:
In France Chrysler France group and in UK Chrysler UK.
In 1970 Simca took over Matra and we have Matra-Simca.
In 1978 PSA group took over the Chrysler division in europe and we have:
in UK, Talbot and in France, Talbot-Peugeot.
Matra-Simca became Talbot-Matra.
Given that, the puzzle car is none of the above.
Sorry :-[
To the Pros.
(multiple guesses allowed)
(be reasonable...)
Is it a European brand?
Yes, it is.
From the UK?
Not UK...
Sacre' bleu! French?
Oui!
CGV?
Type A Panhard & Levassor?
CGV
Panhard et Levassor
French car.
Not a CGV or Panhard.
You can name more than one in your reply, since multiple guesses are allowed...
Corre-la-Licorne ?
Not that...
CGV
Corre-la-Licorne
Panhard et Levassor
Could be a Hurtu or an Ader.
None of the above ...(and below)...
Ader
CGV
Corre-la-Licorne
Hurtu
Panhard et Levassor
Make name in the range A-L?
Yes...
A-F?
Yes...
A-C?
Did this make of car last more than 10 years?
B
Don't think so. (very little info, but reliable)
Buat?
Not that...
Buat
As multiple guesses are allowed
Baby
Barriquand et Schmidt
Basset et Meline
Boilet
Bourdon
<1905?
Multiple guesses allowed and welcome.
Post 1905
Baby
Barriquand et Schmidt
Basset et Meline
Boilet
Bourdon
Buat
Baillereau
Bertier
Bosson
Burlat
Baby
Baillereau
Barriquand et Schmidt
Basset et Meline
Bertier
Boilet
Bosson
Bourdon
Buat
Burlat
1907 Beatrix
1907 Bekka
1907 Boty's
1911 Breese
1907 Bréguet
Baby
Baillereau
Barriquand et Schmidt
Basset et Meline
Beatrix
Bekka
Bertier
Boilet
Bosson
Boty's
Bourdon
Breese
Breguet
Buat
Burlat
Boyer?
Bozier?
Quote from: Paul Jaray on April 01, 2010, 06:45:55 AM
Multiple guesses allowed..
I guess now it makes sense ;)
Baby
Baillereau
Barriquand et Schmidt
Basset et Meline
Beatrix
Bekka
Bertier
Boilet
Bosson
Boty's
Bourdon
Boyer
Bozier
Breese
Breguet
Buat
Burlat
OK, here's some multiple guesses then...
Bailleau
Baille-Lemaire
Bailleul
Bardon
Baudier
Begot et Cail
Begot et Mazurie
Benois et Damas
Berard
Berret
Boissaye
Bonneville
Brillie
Busson
Baby
Bailleau
Baille-Lemaire
Baillereau
Bailleul
Bardon
Barriquand et Schmidt
Basset et Meline
Baudier
Beatrix
Begot et Cail
Begot et Mazurie
Bekka
Benois et Damas
Berard
Berret
Bertier
Boilet
Boissaye
Bonneville
Bosson
Boty's
Bourdon
Boyer
Bozier
Breese
Breguet
Brillie
Buat
Burlat
Busson
De Dion-Bouton?
Oh wait, you say it starts with a B?
Since we are guessing, I will guess Berliet.
Barron - Vialle
Baya
De Bazelaire
Bertagna
Brouhot
Baby
Bailleau
Baille-Lemaire
Baillereau
Bailleul
Bardon
Barriquand et Schmidt
Barron-Vialle
Basset et Meline
Baudier
Baya
Bazelaire, de
Beatrix
Begot et Cail
Begot et Mazurie
Bekka
Benois et Damas
Berard
Berliet
Berret
Bertagna
Bertier
Boilet
Boissaye
Bonneville
Bosson
Boty's
Bourdon
Boyer
Bozier
Breese
Breguet
Brouhot
Brillie
Buat
Burlat
Busson
Brasier?
Baby
Bailleau
Baille-Lemaire
Baillereau
Bailleul
Bardon
Barriquand et Schmidt
Barron-Vialle
Basset et Meline
Baudier
Baya
Bazelaire, de
Beatrix
Begot et Cail
Begot et Mazurie
Bekka
Benois et Damas
Berard
Berliet
Berret
Bertagna
Bertier
Boilet
Boissaye
Bonneville
Bosson
Boty's
Bourdon
Boyer
Bozier
Brasier
Breese
Breguet
Brouhot
Brillie
Buat
Burlat
Busson
Are going to post all French makes with a B here? ;)
That could well add up to about 100 makes... (excluding the ones from dates that seem impossible for this kind of car)
I suspect this one will be not in that list...but never say never!
I am out of Bs.
Quote from: Tackitt on April 02, 2010, 10:04:04 AM
I am out of Bs.
Just like Google was out of vowels yesterday?
This got to be real obscure, it seems it is not listed either in The Beaulieu Encyclopedia of the Automobile or in guide de l'automobile francaise. Hmmm
Now I think I got your attention... ;D
But how to proceed forward? That is the question!
This is one of the cases in which our books are useless.
...but this car is not so rare on the web....
Is it a car which isn't actually old at all? Sort of fake, maybe?
Not at all...this car is a real, old french car, but for some obscure reasons, nobody reported its existence in any book or magazie, it seems.
Probably just an early case of re-badging...
EDIT: it's not a re-badged example from a well-known maker.
Do you have a year for it?
Yes I do.
before 1910?
Yep...
1907?
1908 circa.
Was it exhibited on a famous event the last years?
...or for sale?
For sale...
still listed?
I did not checked if it is still for sale, but for sure is still on the web.
Was it for sale in France?
..maybe by a famous auctioneer?
It was for sale by a famous auctioneer years ago.
Is it the only car of that make?
Two names?
I have a name of a french brand that started life in 1908 and disappeared in the very same year...and it's not listed on this topic, yet.
But the car on the pic I've found looks completely different... :-\
Isn't it worth a try?
Let's try it: "Besseyre et Rayne"?
Not that...
Bobrie Fréres Type C
You've found it! Congrats! :)
...though the car is apparently from 1904....
(http://www.mysmilie.de/midi-smileys/boese/1/0004.gif) (http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/frech/)
Quote from: Allemano on April 02, 2010, 07:22:43 PM
You've dound it! Congrats! :)
...though the car is apparently from 1904....
(http://www.mysmilie.de/midi-smileys/boese/1/0004.gif) (http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/frech/)
Thanks! and yes according to the site it is a 1904 Chassis No 16
Congratulations! That's the car!
Well done,
Here the story I have:
"Engine: De Dion Bouton single cylinder, 100 x 120mm bore and stroke, 942cc, water-cooled with mechanically operated valves, magneto ignition; Gearbox: three speed and reverse, cone clutch, shaft-drive to bevel back axle; Suspension: front, semi-elliptic leaf springs, rear, three-quarter leaf springs; Brakes: two wheel drum. Right hand drive and controls.
Saumur, on the south bank of the sleepy river Loire, is not an industrial centre. It is best known for its fairy-tale chateau that dominates the town and the vine-covered hinterland that in a good year produces wines of above average quality, and in other years not, both reasons why the locals keep knowledge of their production largely to themselves. They also seem to have exhibited a similar reticence on the subject of motorcars produced in the town, since the name of Bobrie Freres appears in not one period or later list of car producers, and the make has been lost to history until now. Were it not for the survival of this one example this would almost certainly have remained the case.
That this voiturette with its De Dion Bouton engine of about 1908 is not just a re-badged example from a well-known maker is shown by the fact that the words 'Bobrie Freres - Constructeur' are cast into the gearbox and the back axle, the name is engraved on the hub-caps, and it appears on the dashboard plate and the threshold strips, along with the Saumur address. The 1907 Michelin Guide reveals that the Bobrie Freres were garagistes at 28 rue St Nicolas, and, significantly, were the De Dion Bouton agents for Saumur. By 1913 they had moved to the rue de Bordeaux, and were then also agents for Berliet, Clement-Bayard, and Renault. Manufacture of motorcars is not mentioned at all in either entry.
It is not only the name on the components that singles it out as an 'own make' but it also has a distinctive technical feature: an extension of the gearbox casting forms a bell-housing over the flywheel and clutch and unites it with the engine crankcase, thus forming in effect a single unit. Decauville and Motobloc had pioneered this form of unit construction on larger cars in the first years of the 20th century, but it is most unusual to find it on a voiturette, even from several years later.
The car has been stored in less than ideal conditions and is very rusty. It has suffered some hacking about of the bell-housing and appears to be missing at least its prop-shaft and radiator. Therefore it requires total restoration. However once done it will make a charming addition to the ranks of surviving voiturettes and for once the term 'unique au monde' so often arbitrarily applied to the most commonplace of motorcars displayed in French museums can correctly be used."
Here you have few lines about Bobrie Freres (1908-1923):
"S'il existait un palmarès de la curiosité automobile, la marque parisienne Bédélia se verrait certainement décerner un prix d'honneur pour son étonnant cyclecar. Difficile en effet de passer inaperçu au volant de cet engin extrêmement profilé, et caractérisé surtout par la disposition particulière de ses sièges en tandem. Une originalité dont la paternité revient sans doute à la marque Bobrie, créée à Saumur, dans le Maine-et-Loire, par Camille et Léonce Bobrie quelques années précédant la première guerre mondiale. Les deux frères ont en effet débuté la fabrication puis la commercialisation, dès 1908, d'une série d'environ dix petites voitures qui présentaient cette disposition inaccoutumée des sièges en tandem. Mais la similitude entre les deux marques s'arrête à ce singulier détail car, durant toute sa production automobile (1908-1923) Bobrie a entretenu une vocation purement régionale avec un chiffre des ventes restreint, alors que Bédélia s'est progressivement hissé en tête des ventes de cyclecars dans tout l'hexagone. Une notoriété qui avait pourtant débuté par un fait divers anodin qui aurait pu avoir des conséquences tragiques !"
Quote from: Paul Jaray on April 02, 2010, 07:33:57 PM
Congratulations! That's the car!
Well done,
Thank you! (http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/froehlich/g025.gif)
after all 1908 seems the more reliable year...
Thank God I can stop looking now.
And it was in the guide de l'automobile francaise, just as "Bobery" without a year :(
Here you are another example of the "do not trust all you find in the net" rule.
This car is not that obscure after all. The reason why it was not that easy to find is that it was not named after its builder.
Léonce et Camille Bobrie were bicycle makers and Berliet agents and they built few cars (Ballot engine-Arbel chassis body by Bobrie) called La Torpille.
Under this name there are many sources.
"La Torpille" is described as a tandem-seated cyclecar with a Ballot engine of 6 or 8 hp, and a 2-speed gearbox...quite different from this one, but later models had side-by-side seating, Ballot or Fivet 6/8 hp engine.