AutoPuzzles - The Internet's Museum of Rare Cars!
Puzzles, Games and Name That Car => Solved AutoPuzzles => 2011 => Topic started by: Allemano on February 08, 2009, 06:46:22 AM
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Do you know the story of this car?
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Maybe the better educated know... ;)
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Brazilian? The floor looks like a Rio de Janeiro sidewalk.
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Not Brazilian at all!
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I'm curious of what the Pros will say!
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A humble expert thinks it's a project made to
earn some money on revive a Bizzarini name. But it's just for a first glance, as I can't provide any further info. It also looks like a defunct mock-up to me.
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Yes, some styling elements are indeed similar to Bizzarini cars, but unfortunately there isn't any connection
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Total shot in the dark here: Kellison related?
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I think I saw this car before, probably in a bigger version, with other cars from the same (japanese?) design-house. Or I'm just confusing with a Felber picture...
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All guesses have been completely wrong so far!
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I think I saw this car before, probably in a bigger version, with other cars from the same (japanese?) design-house. Or I'm just confusing with a Felber picture...
I know the Felber picture you've meant. It shows the whole model range and the entrepreneur in the center.
It hasn't anything to do with Felber, Kellison or any Japanese company. It's more recent as it looks and contains a very interisting background story (IMHO!)
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Brazilian? The floor looks like a Rio de Janeiro sidewalk.
I'd faster say it was a Portuguese sidewalk...But that's not a Portuguese project. No idea what it is but still gorgeous!
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Brazilian? The floor looks like a Rio de Janeiro sidewalk.
I'd faster say it was a Portuguese sidewalk...But that's not a Portuguese project. No idea what it is but still gorgeous!
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Brazilian? The floor looks like a Rio de Janeiro sidewalk.
I'd faster say it was a Portuguese sidewalk...But that's not a Portuguese project. No idea what it is but still gorgeous!
Indeed, this kind of sidewalk is called here in Brazil as "Portuguese Mosaic" :)
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Nobody has even asked if it's European?
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It's European.
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Italian?
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Si!
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Self-buit one-off (i,e. not made by any manufacturer) ?
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It's indeed an one-off, but self-built? I would say No! (not in the sense you've meant I suppose)
There are famous people involved...
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No connection to Bizzarrini... Hmmm.. Iso maybe?
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Not one of those!
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Any known builder or coachbuilder involved?
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"Coachbuilder" is not the right term in this case!
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As far as I understand, this is a mock-up made in 2008 based on drawings made by Giorgetto Giugiaro back in October 1964 for a mid-engined car. My understanding is that these drawings WERE originally made for Bizzarrini.
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It has also been the subject of recent controversy. Because this design predates the Lamborghini Miura, Marcello Gandini has been questioned about whether this might have been the first design for the Miura, which he might have 'inherited' - something he strongly denies, incidentally. Giugiaro was probably at Bertone when he penned this car
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As far as I know this mock-up was a gift for Giorgetto Giugiaro's 70th birthday. His son Fabrizio built it considering original Bertone sketches his father did in the sixties for the Lamborghini Miura. Obviousely there was an internal Bertone design competition.
Gandini was the the winner and Giugiaro's design was refused. (I 200% agree with this decision!)
I didn't know the Bizzarini connection, but am not sure if there is any.
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Here's a pic which emphasizes my previous post:
(I still don't know what to do with that open point.. :-[)
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I didn't know the Bizzarini connection, but am not sure if there is any.
That connection was reported in Automotive News only this week!
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I think Quiller is partly right, but does not have the complete story.
I believe this is a mock-up made in the past 18 months of a car designed by Giugiaro in 1964 whilst he was still working at Bertone. It was Giugiaro's original design sketch (never built) for Bertone's Lamborghini Miura. So, ultimately it's a mock-up of the Giugiaro-designed Bertone Lamborghini Miura.
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So, ultimately it's a mock-up of the Giugiaro-designed Bertone Lamborghini Miura.
I think that's where the controversy lies. Did you see Gandini's interview about this in Automotive News?
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Yes, the Automotive News story also reminded me that I had seen this before in a Dutch sportscar design book last year. I shall try and find it to scan the page in.
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The final Lamborghini Miura may well have been a mix between some Giugiaro and some Gandini elements. The final Miura softnose front reminds much about many of the earlier Bertone designs, when Giugiaro was the design leader at Bertone. And the angular looking rear end of the final Miura have clear Gandini overtones.
This theory have been presented several times for the involved parts, but they have never said anything, nor denied it or confirmed it. Giurgiaro have just smiled in an interview.
The front end details in this "161 mystery" Giugiaro design sure looks like a Bizzarrini front, not a Lamborghini. So I guess it was meant to be a Bizzarrini.
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I've moved it to the Solved section.
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Oh! It's been soled!
;D
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Here's a scan of the Automotive News article.
Anyone got any decent pics of this car?
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Personally I don't think this settles anything! I have a theory that for whatever reason Giugiaro and Gandini together with Bertone have agreed that as far as history is concerned the Miura was designed by Gandini. Whether that's because by the time it came out Giugiaro had moved on or whether it was to give Gandini an explosive start at Bertone I don't know. But the Fiat Dino Coupe is attributed to Giugiaro and the Miura to Gandini yet I can't see how these two cars can possibly have been designed by different people. Look at the windows: the identical front windscreens and the upsweep of the side windows. Look at the whole curve of the waistline, which is all but the same. Look at the rear-ends, which are almost identical. I simply don't believe Giugiaro did not at least have a major hand in the Miura!
Another Giugiaro design with a strong resemblance to both the Miura and the Dino Coupe is the Alfa Montreal. And show me another Gandini-designed car with even a passing resemblance to the Miura!
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One must look to The Corvair Testudo of 1963 to understand and appreciate Giugiaro's claim.
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more:
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I'm really not liking the white-stripe tires on that car. :-\
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I'm really not liking the white-stripe tires on that car. :-\
Think it was a device to make the wheels look bigger than they are and fill the arches better.
Nowadays, of course, they just make the wheels bigger...
But at that time huge wheels would have looked silly. Times change!
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I´ve used that trick on my own old Saab - it really lets the steel wheels look bigger:
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Personally I don't think this settles anything!
Oh, I think it (the Automotive News feature) does seem to settle at least one thing: the identity of our puzzle car. Let’s look at the facts:
1) The drawings are dated October 16, 1964.
2) Giugiaro refers to these drawings as a “Bizzarrini mid-engine sports car”.
3) The design sports a distinctive Bizzarrini nose, first presented (to the best of my knowledge) a year before, on the Iso Grifo A3/C (which became the Strada in 1964).
Conclusion: Why, in light of all the evidence, are we still referring to the puzzle car as a Miura proposal? Moreover, would Giugiaro have presented a Bizzarrini-looking car to Lamborghini back in 1964? (He may have recycled the overall shape of his Gordon-Keeble design as many as 3 times between 1960-62 but always altered it with styling cues suitable for and peculiar to a given brand.)
The thing is, I keep seeing blogs popping up that take that alleged Lamborghini connection for granted, while I’ve seen no relevant confirmation from Giugiaro himself. Isn’t this site about presenting “cold hard facts” rather than jumping to conclusions and perpetuating myths?
I have a theory that for whatever reason Giugiaro and Gandini together with Bertone have agreed that as far as history is concerned the Miura was designed by Gandini.
I’m alright with that theory (and I like your Miura / Dino comparison), although – as clichéd as it sounds – I guess we’ll simply never know the whole truth. That said, I’ve managed to find a couple of (alleged) Giugiaro drawings (included; PM me for the link if you feel like contacting the source) accompanied by the following elucidation:
“According to Dick Ruzzin (GM Europe boss who was told this directly by Nuccio Bertone himself), Giugiaro was asked to make sketches for a mid-engined car on the eve of his departure from Bertone to Ghia. Giugiaro was not told that it was intended for a Lamborghini, because Bertone was aware that he was leaving the firm and was afraid that Ghia might get the job of clothing the new mid-engined Lamborghini. When young Marcello Gandini was given the brief, he was allowed to review Giugiaro’s drawings but Gandini asked to see the new Miura chassis (1965 Turin Salon unit) and he proceeded to use both Giugiaro's sketches and the actual chassis to form the body of the new Miura.”
Naturally, I would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on the validity of those sketches (and on the story itself, needless to say).
I simply don't believe Giugiaro did not at least have a major hand in the Miura!
What I find hard to believe is that you made no mention of the 1964 (or 1965?) Giulia Sport Special (basically Giugiaro’s 2-seater proposal for the Sprint) which introduced the famous “horn-shaped” door pillars, and which – in my eyes, at least – wasn’t a million miles away from the Montreal in general. (Comparison pic below.) This alone would render Gandini’s assertion that “any alleged influence by Giugiaro in [the Miura] is simply not true”, well… not true.
Then, of course, there’s the 1963 Testudo with its “flip-up” headlights which Tuckeroo has already aptly mentioned.
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When asked, ItalDesign has informed me that this car does not belong to ItalDesign-Giugiaro and it has no relation with Lamborghini!
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Very interesting new facts. Hope we will find out even more...
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Just to add a little more weight to my assertions about the designer of the Miura here is a quote from the lamborghinimiura.com website:
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Since a long time, the credit of designing the Miura almost entirely went to Marcello Gandini, who replaced Giorgetto Giugiaro at Bertone. Giugiaro left Bertone for Ghia in December 1965. He had the time to draw the basic lines of the Miura. Giugiario recently said that 70% of the Miura design is his. Anyway, what is important is the result: the Miura is a true masterpiece. La piu bella. Designer Piero Stroppa (who worked at Bertone from 1965 to 1970) assisted these two designers at Betone on the Miura project.
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I don't know who or where Giugiaro said that to, but if true that looks fairly definitive!