Solved - NEH 1620: Frua Fiat Poccardi 125 Shopping - 1968

Carnut · March 14, 2012, 08:54:56 AM

What's this, by whom, from when - for 1 point?

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Carnut · March 21, 2012, 05:46:26 AM

Experts?

als15 · March 21, 2012, 05:58:36 AM

Fiat 125 designed by Frua for Poccardi, a short-lived Turin-based coachbuilder, in 1967.

Carnut · March 21, 2012, 08:43:50 AM

Quote from: als15 on March 21, 2012, 05:58:36 AM
Fiat 125 designed by Frua for Poccardi, a short-lived Turin-based coachbuilder, in 1967.

Yes; and its name?

als15 · March 21, 2012, 08:57:45 AM

Oh, yes, it should be "Shopping".

Carnut · March 21, 2012, 08:59:00 AM

Quote from: als15 on March 21, 2012, 08:57:45 AM
Oh, yes, it should be "Shopping".

That's it, but I've just noticed there is a slight error in your reply.
Although it's a Frua Poccardi Fiat Shopping, it's not the one based on a 125! They made 2...
At least so I understand from a very authoritative book...!

als15 · March 21, 2012, 09:04:39 AM

If not the 125, it is the 124. They are indeed very similar.

als15 · March 21, 2012, 09:19:12 AM

I double-checked and I confirm my first guess: it should be the 125.
Two were made: the 125, in blue/green colour (right in the picture), and the 124, in bronze color (left in the picture).
The body was very similar, but they can be recognized having the 124 (just to add a little of confusion) twin headlamps coming from a stock Fiat 125.

Carnut · March 21, 2012, 10:51:51 AM

Confusing to say the least.

I had the choice which one to post and I chose what was captioned as the 124 because it looked the least like a 124 at first glance.
So you mean the 124 has the 125's twin headlights?! And does the 125 have the 124's headlights?!! The puzzle car has the rectangular lights so I thought that made it the 124; seems I was wrong!

I'll take your word for it for the moment and call this one solved, then I'll check when I'm back at home and maybe post both pictures with their captions so we can contemplate what's right and wrong!

als15 · March 21, 2012, 11:31:19 AM

No, the 125 has Opel Rekord headlamps (I guess)

.

Carnut · March 22, 2012, 05:46:39 AM

Here are the pages regarding these Frua Poccardi cars from Sr Fornai's book; I was right - the puzzle car is the 124 version with the rectangular headlights and the 125 version was equipped with the stock 125 twin headlights!:

als15 · March 22, 2012, 09:39:44 AM

Ok, if this is your source, I can understand...

Mi advice is not to waste time with those books, that are only a poor copy&paste of pictures taken around, put together without any critical knowledge of them.

If you look at this period feature coming from Quattroruote, you see that Fornai made a lot of confusion (once again)...

Carnut · March 22, 2012, 10:22:07 AM

Oh dear.. you've ruined my opinion of Mr Fornai!
The quality of the pictures in his books is pretty grim but I always thought the information must be good; seems I'm wrong (again!).
So I'll change it back to a 125 once more and I'll check my other Frua literature to make sure Quattroruote haven't got it wrong. It's probably unlikely they have, but most car magazines in the UK are fed up with me writing in to correct their mistakes, there are so many of them! They rarely print errata as they don't like admitting they don't know what they're talking about.
(e.g. I sent an email just today to Classic Car Weekly in response to their comment "The (Maserati) Sebring was available as a two-door coupe and two-door convertible between 1962 and 1969." A Sebring Convertible eh? I've asked them for a photo of it..!)

Wendax · March 22, 2012, 10:40:37 AM

Quote from: Carnut on March 22, 2012, 10:22:07 AM
A Sebring Convertible eh? I've asked them for a photo of it..!)

Here it is...

als15 · March 22, 2012, 10:49:04 AM

Quote from: Carnut on March 22, 2012, 10:22:07 AM
Oh dear.. you've ruined my opinion of Mr Fornai!
The quality of the pictures in his books is pretty grim but I always thought the information must be good; seems I'm wrong (again!).

Sorry to be so "tranchant" with Mr. Fornai, but I've only seen his books adding confusion, without any deep research. Everybody that writes anything risks to do mistakes: only saying nothing one has 100% the possibility to avoid mistakes...

But I've the feeling that those books are indeed only a repository of unsorted stuff: nothing added to the general knowledge, sometimes something missed, accidentally altered or mixed up...
In my opinion, he lost a great opportunity to do a good job, organizing and verifying a little more all the information he collected from old magazines. If tehy had been reliable (and perhaps he had spent some more cents on the printing), they would have been great books.

Carnut · March 22, 2012, 11:42:44 AM

Yes. The trouble is many of the Carrozzeria he covers are so unrepresented in print, so at least these books do have pictures which are hard to find elsewhere.

75america · March 22, 2012, 12:59:11 PM

I have almost the complete series of Fornai books, as well as the complete series of Quattroruote.
Indeed, the Fornai books are not very reliable (and the quality is really shite) while I have until now not discovered errors in the QR's.
But as Carnut points out, they are one of the only sources that covers the more 'obscure' carrozzeria, so even if these books are not that good, for some coachbuilders it's the best (only thing) there is available on the market.

From another reliable (and well known) source:

als15 · March 22, 2012, 01:02:53 PM

I agree.
That source you posted (and, complying with our rules, without mentioning its web adress

) is definitely an excellent one.

This discussion suggests me that something more than the "Fiat fuoriserie" books should be made, perhaps listing all the different Italian coachbuilders... I'll take the suggestion!

Carnut · March 22, 2012, 01:08:45 PM

Quote from: als15 on March 22, 2012, 01:02:53 PM
I agree.
That source you posted (and, complying with our rules, without mentioning its web adress ) is definitely an excellent one.

This discussion suggests me that something more than the "Fiat fuoriserie" books should be made, perhaps listing all the different Italian coachbuilders... I'll take the suggestion!

Well you know I have suggested it in the past to one or two authors and they all think it's a good idea. We need more about the Carrozzeria whilst there are still people around who knew them! Hezza on this site has written books (or one I know of at least) and when I suggested it to him he hinted that he might have something similar in mind; nothing has been forthcoming though. I think the market is just so limited. It would be terrific if there really were authoritative books on the lesser-known Carrozziere though..

als15 · March 22, 2012, 01:18:21 PM

Ok, let's consider it as done! I've just written the title: "The Encyclopaedia of Italian Coachbuilders". Now only the last 400 pages are to be filled.

But I'll do it in the next days!

Apart from joking, I think that it's a book that must be written and I really will do that, going through all the stuff I've collected in the years. Perhaps it will not be perfect, but it will be a good beginning...

75america · March 22, 2012, 01:22:24 PM

Quote from: als15 on March 22, 2012, 01:18:21 PM
Ok, let's consider it as done! I've just written the title: "The Encyclopaedia of Italian Coachbuilders". Now only the last 400 pages are to be filled.
But I'll do it in the next days!

Apart form joking, I think that it's a book that must be written and I really will do that, going through all the stuff I've collected in the years. Perhaps it will not be perfect, but it will be a good beginning...

Where can I place my order?

als15 · March 22, 2012, 01:40:05 PM

We can arrange some discounted pre-ordering...

You should only be patient and confident...

Carnut · March 22, 2012, 08:00:54 PM

Consider my order in for the best book ever written!

Carnut · March 22, 2012, 08:07:09 PM

Quote from: 75america on March 22, 2012, 12:59:11 PM
From another reliable (and well known) source:

Yes, Stefan is an old friend of mine and his site is outstanding and I think very accurate; you'll even find some photos attributed to me there!

There's nothing quite like a book though and although there is the Detlef Lichtenstein Frua book it barely scratches the surface.

Paul Jaray · March 25, 2012, 05:07:53 AM

Quote from: 75america on March 22, 2012, 01:22:24 PM
Quote from: als15 on March 22, 2012, 01:18:21 PM
Ok, let's consider it as done! I've just written the title: "The Encyclopaedia of Italian Coachbuilders". Now only the last 400 pages are to be filled.
But I'll do it in the next days!

Apart form joking, I think that it's a book that must be written and I really will do that, going through all the stuff I've collected in the years. Perhaps it will not be perfect, but it will be a good beginning...

Where can I place my order?

I want one!
I'd love to have such a book.
I have all als15's books about Fiat Fuoriserie and was going to buy all Fornai's book more than once but, as it's been written before, they are of poor quality and not deep researched. But the fact that stopped me is that they are outrageously expensive for a bunch of BW pages like those.
We need a definitive (or something close to that) reference book about.
I read (and indexed) all the first 200 issues of Quattroruote, if you need any help (where you can find an article about any coachbuilt car without browsing them all), I'll be glad.

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Solved - NEH 1620: Frua Fiat Poccardi 125 Shopping - 1968