16 puzzle points available from a simgle picture!!!
One point for every car and one for when, where and at least the winner...
A few cars from the grid are unknown to me...
MPC
Use the numbers to indentify the cars!
MPC
Great puzzle! :thumbsup:
An empty list for you...
Where/When/Winner - I Circuito di Piacenza 11/05/1947 sport over 1100cc 1st Barbieri (Maserati) - M630
1 - Ferrari 125S - M630 - Franco Cortese (128) DNF
2 - Maserati 6CS 1500 - M630 - Mario Angiolini (146) 2nd
3 - Rovelli-BMW 328 Touring - D-type - Nino Rovelli (132) DNF
4 - Maserati 6CS/46 - M630 - Guido Barbieri (134?) 1st
5 - Alfa Romeo 6C 2500 Touring - M630 - Dei (142?) DNF
6 - Lancia Aprilia Colli - SACO - Azzi DNF
7 - Fiat-Stanguellini 2800 - M630 - Renato Balestrero (126) 3rd
8 - Lancia Aprilia Touring - João - Bianchi (?)
9 - Lancia Aprilia Pinin Farina (?) - nicanary - Adanti (?)
10 - Maserati-Fiat 1500 Speciale - faksta - Giovanni Bracco DNF
11 - Alfa Romeo 6C 2300B Touring - sixtee5cuda - Giovanni Cattina (144) DNS(?)
12 - Lancia Aprilia Zagato - nicanary - Danzi
13 - Lancia Aprilia Tinarelli - faksta - Aldo Ranzini 4th
14 - Auto Avio 815 Touring - D-type - Enrico Beltracchini DNF
15 - Alfa Romeo 6C 2500 SS Sail - faksta - Giovanni Maria Cornaggia Medici 5th
Hope to see soon the list full!!! ;)
MPC
M630 - 6 points
faksta - 3 points
D-type - 2 points
nicanary - 2 points
SACO - 1 point
João - 1 point
sixtee5cuda - 1 point
Points added! :applause:
Let's go rookies!!
There are some easy Christmas points here!!!
MPC
Time for experts now!!
MPC
1. Ferrari 159
3. BMW 328 specially bodied by Touring
5. Alfa Romeo 8C 2900
9. Adler
Event: 1947 Circuit of Valentino, Turin
Winner: Raymond Sommer, 2 litre Ferrari 159
Quote from: D-type on December 30, 2011, 03:48:31 PM
1. Ferrari 159
3. BMW 328 specially bodied by Touring
5. Alfa Romeo 8C 2900
9. Adler
Event: 1947 Circuit of Valentino, Turin
Winner: Raymond Sommer, 2 litre Ferrari 159
I'm sorry this is not the correct race...
1947 is correct...
#1 is a Ferrari but not a 159, #3 is indeed a Touring BMW 328... do you know the driver? #5 shouldn't be an 8C 2900 but it's an Alfa... and I don't know #9... can you prove me it's an Adler?
These cars (1,3,5,9) and the race are locked for you until your next reply!!
MPC
Don't lock the puzzle - there's too much for others to answer.
If not the 159, the ferrari is either a 125 or a 166 from later in the year when it got the 2 litre engine. I'll plump for 166
No idea on the BMW driver or Alfa model
The "Adler" simply looks like the prewar Adler streamlined coupe. I have photos in books but don't have a scanner.
#9 shouldn't be an Adler, but the other cars are easy!
The puzzle is open again but don't give up!!
MPC
Piacenza 11 /05/47 :
1- Ferrari 125 Spyder Corsa
2- Maserati Tipo 6CS
3- BMW 328
4- Maserati 6CS 46
5- Auto Avio Construzioni tipo 815
6-
7- Alfa Roméo
8- Lancia Aprilia
9- Lancia Aprilia
Winner : Guido Barbieri / Maserati (the n°4)
Piacenza 11 /05/47 : Correct!
1- Ferrari 125 Spyder Corsa Yes
2- Maserati Tipo 6CS Yes
3- BMW 328 Solved by D-type
4- Maserati 6CS 46 Yes
5- Auto Avio Construzioni tipo 815 No
6-
7- Alfa Roméo No
8- Lancia Aprilia Yes, do you know the coachbuilder?
9- Lancia Aprilia I don't know... let me know more...
Winner : Guido Barbieri / Maserati (the n°4) Yes
5- Alfa Romeo 2500
6- Stanguellini 1100
Quote from: M630 on December 31, 2011, 08:17:25 AM
5- Alfa Romeo 2500
6- Stanguellini 1100
#5 correct, #6 wrong (but I don't know what is it... for sure not a Stanguellini 1100...
MPC
A coachbuilder for #5??
MPC
Renato Balestrero was 4 in this race with a Stanguellini : the number 6 ?
For the 5 : Touring ?
Balestrero was third with a Stanguellini, but it isn't #6!
Touring is correct for #5!
MPC
Also in this race the AAC 815 of Enrico Beltracchini ... j don't see very well... the 11 ?
A few more guesses:
#6 Maserati
#7 Alfa Romeo
#10 Ferrari 125 Spyder Corsa
#11 Lancia Aprilia
#14 AAC 815
and the BMW was driven by Nino Rovelli
Quote from: D-type on December 31, 2011, 08:41:57 AM
A few more guesses:
#6 Maserati
#7 Alfa Romeo
#10 Ferrari 125 Spyder Corsa
#11 Lancia Aprilia
#14 AAC 815
and the BMW was driven by Nino Rovelli
#14 is the Auto Avio 815!
Nino Rovelli is correct!
#6 and #7 are wrong and #10 too...
#11 can be an Aprilia... I don't know... you have to prove it!
MPC
7 = Stanguellini 2800 of Renato Balestrero and 8 = Lancia Aprilia 1500 spl of Aldo Ranzini ?
Quote from: M630 on December 31, 2011, 09:49:11 AM
7 = Stanguellini 2800 of Renato Balestrero and 8 = Lancia Aprilia 1500 spl of Aldo Ranzini ?
#7 is correct,
#8 is a Lancia Aprilia, but I'd like to know the coachbuilder...
MPC
Zagato ?
Pininfarina ?
#9 should be a Stanguellini, probably a 1100.
#8 perhaps a Lancia Aprilia by Pagani.
#12 is a Siata 1100, probably with a reshaped nose.
Quote from: als15 on January 04, 2012, 06:31:50 PM
#9 should be a Stanguellini, probably a 1100.
#8 perhaps a Lancia Aprilia by Pagani.
#12 is a Siata 1100, probably with a reshaped nose.
#8 is not the name I have...
#9 and #12 are unknown to me... but I believe they're not 1100 as this is the "over 1100cc" starting grid (I wrote it in one of the first posts) ... I'm not sure so maybe some "up to 1100cc" cars raced in this class...
If yu can prove it...
MPC
Up again!
MPC
Number #8 : Lancia Aprilia Barchetta by Touring.
#6 Fiat 500 Gilco Sport?
#15 :Alfa 6C by Ghia ?
#8 : Lancia Paganelli ?
#6 : Aprillia by Colli ?
Quote from: João on January 09, 2012, 12:28:48 PM
Number #8 : Lancia Aprilia Barchetta by Touring.
Correct!
MPC
Quote from: SACO on January 09, 2012, 12:42:08 PM
#8 : Lancia Paganelli ?
I have it as Touring, who should be the coachbuilder... I don't know about Paganelli...
MPC
Quote from: SACO on January 09, 2012, 12:39:29 PM
#15 :Alfa 6C by Ghia ?
I never saw this 6C by Ghia, but I think it could be the correct car... do you have a better picture or more info to confirm it?
MPC
Quote from: Allemano on January 09, 2012, 12:38:27 PM
#6 Fiat 500 Gilco Sport?
Quote from: SACO on January 09, 2012, 12:43:57 PM
#6 : Aprillia by Colli ?
Surely not a 500, it could be a Colli Aprilia... it's similar but the fenders are different and there are other different parts.
Here another picture of the same starsting grid... if it can helps...
MPC
#13 - Aldo Renzini, Tinarelli Lancia Aprilia
#15 - Giovanna Maria Cornaggia Medici, Sail Alfa Romeo 2500 SS
Quote from: faksta on January 12, 2012, 11:37:40 AM
#13 - Aldo Renzini, Tinarelli Lancia Aprilia
#15 - Giovanna Maria Cornaggia Medici, Sail Alfa Romeo 2500 SS
For sure #13 is an Aprilia and #15 a 6C 2500...
but I don't know if they are Tinarelli or Sail...
SACO said he think #15 is a Ghia, and I think he can be correct... but I never saw it...
Can you please find pics or good sources for these names??
Thanks!
MPC
I'll PM you my source in a minute.
#10 - Giovanni Bracco, Fiat-Maserati. Gonna be also by Tinarelli, by the way.
Regarding #6, I think SACO could be right about the car.
#11 is probably Giovanni Cattina on Alfa Romeo 8C 2300B MM Touring?
You know, looking at the second picture you've posted here, #6 doesn't look quite like Aprilia Colli from the side. Rather like Eugenio Minetti's Zagato bodied Aprilia made by Pagani, which was driven by Giovan Battista Azzi in 1947 (who was running that race). Think this is the car.
It has been mentioned at AP before, BTW: http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=7318.msg64046#msg64046 (http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=7318.msg64046#msg64046)
Quote from: faksta on January 12, 2012, 12:29:01 PM
#10 - Giovanni Bracco, Fiat-Maserati. Gonna be also by Tinarelli, by the way.
Yes!! ;)
MPC
Quote from: faksta on January 12, 2012, 12:56:42 PM
#11 is probably Giovanni Cattina on Alfa Romeo 8C 2300B MM Touring?
I don't think this is the car...
MPC
Quote from: faksta on January 12, 2012, 11:37:40 AM
#13 - Aldo Renzini, Tinarelli Lancia Aprilia
#15 - Giovanna Maria Cornaggia Medici, Sail Alfa Romeo 2500 SS
OK for the Lancia... but now I don't know what to do for the Alfa... I think I will give a point to SACO too as he found the coachbuilder...
MPC
Quote from: Iluvatar on January 13, 2012, 07:14:16 AM
I don't think this is the car...
MPC
It probably isn't pictured here indeed. I have just found the info that Cattina was a DNS.
Quote from: faksta on January 13, 2012, 07:20:50 AM
Quote from: Iluvatar on January 13, 2012, 07:14:16 AM
I don't think this is the car...
MPC
It probably isn't pictured here indeed. I have just found the info that Cattina was a DNS.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Iluvatar on January 13, 2012, 07:18:39 AM
Quote from: faksta on January 12, 2012, 11:37:40 AM
#13 - Aldo Renzini, Tinarelli Lancia Aprilia
#15 - Giovanna Maria Cornaggia Medici, Sail Alfa Romeo 2500 SS
OK for the Lancia... but now I don't know what to do for the Alfa... I think I will give a point to SACO too as he found the coachbuilder...
MPC
I really don't know who made the body for that Alfa. Tried to find that yesterday, but ended up with nothing certain. I can make a shot from the book if you'd like, though.
P.S. And oops, the man is Ranzini, not Renzini...
Quote from: faksta on January 13, 2012, 07:23:57 AMI really don't know who made the body for that Alfa. Tried to find that yesterday, but ended up with nothing certain. I can make a shot from the book if you'd like, though.
P.S. And oops, the man is Ranzini, not Renzini...
I don't know the coachbuilder, but the car looks with Ghia style...
Similar to other Ghia 6C 2500 of that period...
MPC
Quote from: SACO on January 09, 2012, 12:43:57 PM
#6 : Aprillia by Colli ?
Quote from: faksta on January 12, 2012, 12:32:38 PM
Regarding #6, I think SACO could be right about the car.
Quote from: faksta on January 12, 2012, 02:33:23 PM
You know, looking at the second picture you've posted here, #6 doesn't look quite like Aprilia Colli from the side. Rather like Eugenio Minetti's Zagato bodied Aprilia made by Pagani, which was driven by Giovan Battista Azzi in 1947 (who was running that race). Think this is the car.
It has been mentioned at AP before, BTW: http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=7318.msg64046#msg64046 (http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=7318.msg64046#msg64046)
I'm not sure about this one...
Are you sure the picture with number 86 is Azzi with a Zagato Aprilia?
And the shape of the fenders is still different...
Nobody has more infos??
MPC
The #86 car is Eugenio Minetti in 1946, the car went to Azzi later AFAIK.
Quote from: faksta on January 13, 2012, 07:51:47 AM
The #86 car is Eugenio Minetti in 1946, the car went to Azzi later AFAIK.
And what about the coachbuilder?? It doesn't look really Zagato...
A few pixture just to compare...
MPC
Here is some info on Sail and Tinarelli from The Book :)
Quote from: faksta on January 13, 2012, 02:08:49 PM
Here is some info on Sail and Tinarelli from The Book :)
Reading the text I understand Ghia wasn't involved...
MPC
In case 'disegno' in Italian means the same as its Russian analog - just a visual, artistic work, seems it wasn't, but if like in English 'design' more or less = development, then it still might have been involved. Like (for example) Sail put together Alfa chassis, Ghia body, worked on the engine and dealt with other issues.
Quote from: faksta on January 14, 2012, 08:18:22 AM
In case 'disegno' in Italian means the same as its Russian analog - just a visual, artistic work, seems it wasn't, but if like in English 'design' more or less = development, then it still might have been involved. Like (for example) Sail put together Alfa chassis, Ghia body, worked on the engine and dealt with other issues.
You are right... but I don't know... according to the text Sail was a "carrozzeria" so it was something like a coachbuilder... and looking at the picture the car doesn't looks so much in Ghia style... and maybe creator of this one took inspiration from the Ghia bodies...
MPC
Quote from: Iluvatar on January 13, 2012, 07:22:09 AM
Quote from: faksta on January 13, 2012, 07:20:50 AM
Quote from: Iluvatar on January 13, 2012, 07:14:16 AM
I don't think this is the car...
MPC
It probably isn't pictured here indeed. I have just found the info that Cattina was a DNS.
:thumbsup:
Most of the information about this race, shows 13 cars as starting. 3 cars are shown as DNS. In all likelihood, 2 of those DNS cars did start the race (to make up the 15 puzzle cars). I have found images of the Cattina car racing before WWII. It seems to be an Alfa Romeo 6C 2300B MM by Touring. I think this is car #11.
Quote from: sixtee5cuda on October 27, 2012, 11:08:38 PM
Quote from: Iluvatar on January 13, 2012, 07:22:09 AM
Quote from: faksta on January 13, 2012, 07:20:50 AM
Quote from: Iluvatar on January 13, 2012, 07:14:16 AM
I don't think this is the car...
MPC
It probably isn't pictured here indeed. I have just found the info that Cattina was a DNS.
:thumbsup:
Most of the information about this race, shows 13 cars as starting. 3 cars are shown as DNS. In all likelihood, 2 of those DNS cars did start the race (to make up the 15 puzzle cars). I have found images of the Cattina car racing before WWII. It seems to be an Alfa Romeo 6C 2300B MM by Touring. I think this is car #11.
Can you post a picture of Cattina's Alfa? I don't know this car, but maybe you can be right...
This Alfa Romeo also raced in the 1937 Mille Miglia. It is strange to think a 10 year old car raced at Piacenza in 1947, until you take into account a large war during the intervening years.
Quote from: sixtee5cuda on October 27, 2012, 11:08:38 PMMost of the information about this race, shows 13 cars as starting. 3 cars are shown as DNS. In all likelihood, 2 of those DNS cars did start the race (to make up the 15 puzzle cars). I have found images of the Cattina car racing before WWII. It seems to be an Alfa Romeo 6C 2300B MM by Touring. I think this is car #11.
He could have stalled on start. I think in this case he would have been classified as DNS? Or this could have been simply a mistake.
#3: Nino Rovelli drove this special BMW 328.
It is not one of the three BMW 328 Touring roadsters that were built for the NSKK by Touring in 1940/41, intended to race in the 1941 Berlin - Rome race that never was...
Nino Rovelli was an ex-Touring employee and has built this car just in the look of the named three NSKK-Roadsters.
So this seems to have been a one-off body on a standard BMW 328 chassis.
Just to complete the first starting row:
#1 (128) Ferrari 125 S was driven by Cortese.
#2 (132) Maserati 6CS-1500 was driven by Angiolini.
Quote from: grobmotorix on October 28, 2012, 03:55:58 PM
#3: Nino Rovelli drove this special BMW 328.
It is not one of the three BMW 328 Touring roadsters that were built for the NSKK by Touring in 1940/41, intended to race in the 1941 Berlin - Rome race that never was...
Nino Rovelli was an ex-Touring employee and has built this car just in the look of the named three NSKK-Roadsters.
So this seems to have been a one-off body one a standard BMW 328 chassis.
Are you sure about it?
Those are pictures of the "Berlin to Rome" roadsters (IAA-57781/2/3) and a drawing from november 1940... just to compare...
Quote from: sixtee5cuda on October 28, 2012, 10:44:47 AM
This Alfa Romeo also raced in the 1937 Mille Miglia. It is strange to think a 10 year old car raced at Piacenza in 1947, until you take into account a large war during the intervening years.
Yes, the car looks the same... so I think I can give you the solution of #11
And to reply to faksta...
Quote from: faksta on January 12, 2012, 12:56:42 PM
#11 is probably Giovanni Cattina on Alfa Romeo 8C 2300B MM Touring?
...it's not an 8C 2300...
#6Quote from: Iluvatar on January 13, 2012, 07:37:28 AM
Quote from: SACO on January 09, 2012, 12:43:57 PM
#6 : Aprillia by Colli ?
Quote from: faksta on January 12, 2012, 12:32:38 PM
Regarding #6, I think SACO could be right about the car.
Quote from: faksta on January 12, 2012, 02:33:23 PM
You know, looking at the second picture you've posted here, #6 doesn't look quite like Aprilia Colli from the side. Rather like Eugenio Minetti's Zagato bodied Aprilia made by Pagani, which was driven by Giovan Battista Azzi in 1947 (who was running that race). Think this is the car.
It has been mentioned at AP before, BTW: http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=7318.msg64046#msg64046 (http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=7318.msg64046#msg64046)
I'm not sure about this one...
Are you sure the picture with number 86 is Azzi with a Zagato Aprilia?
And the shape of the fenders is still different...
Nobody has more infos??
MPC
Quote from: Iluvatar on January 13, 2012, 08:14:05 AM
Quote from: faksta on January 13, 2012, 07:51:47 AM
The #86 car is Eugenio Minetti in 1946, the car went to Azzi later AFAIK.
And what about the coachbuilder?? It doesn't look really Zagato...
A few pixture just to compare...
MPC
Pictures of Minetti's Aprilia Zagato (#32, 1938 Coppa Acerbo) and Colli (#68, 1940 Mille Miglia).
The second one looks indeed similar to #6 and to 1946 #86 car. So I think this colud be the same car with a post-war modification... and I can consider #6 solved by SACO, the first to recognize it as a Colli Aprilia...
More info are welcome...
What about #9 and #12??
Could #9 be the Siata 1500 Viotti done before the war for V. Mussolini, Scuderia Parioli? This panoramic windscreen could suggest so.
My research indicates the unsolved cars are either 2 Lancias, or a Lancia and a Maserati. #9 being a coupe should make it easy to find, but it hasn't turned out that way.
QuoteAre you sure about it?
Those are pictures of the "Berlin to Rome" roadsters (IAA-57781/2/3) and a drawing from november 1940... just to compare...
Yes, that´s what the photo´s text says. And the source has been edited by "BMW Moderne Tradition", so I tend to trust it, really.
It doesn´t sound like he has just altered and tuned one of the three NSKK Touring 328 roadster´s, but took a standard 328 and built a fourth one...
Quote from: als15 on October 29, 2012, 03:07:20 AM
Could #9 be the Siata 1500 Viotti done before the war for V. Mussolini, Scuderia Parioli? This panoramic windscreen could suggest so.
This is a good guess, but...
...I have the Vittorio Mussolini car as a Siata 1100, and if it was a 1100 this is not the correct starting grid (over 1100...).
The car is far and not easy to recognize, but I think the rear fenders looks different and the windshield looks lower...
And indeed sixtee5cuda should be right:
Quote from: sixtee5cuda on October 29, 2012, 07:47:48 AM
My research indicates the unsolved cars are either 2 Lancias, or a Lancia and a Maserati. #9 being a coupe should make it easy to find, but it hasn't turned out that way.
The year before (it was 1937) V. Mussolini also raced a very similar 1500. Two were made for Scuderia Parioli, one was very soon rebodied with a lighter (and very different) body, but the other probably stayed unchanged. I was guessing it could be this one.
I'll try to post a photo this evening.
Quote from: als15 on October 30, 2012, 09:26:48 AM
The year before (it was 1937) V. Mussolini also raced a very similar 1500. Two were made for Scuderia Parioli, one was very soon rebodied with a lighter (and very different) body, but the other probably stayed unchanged. I was guessing it could be this one.
I'll try to post a photo this evening.
Ok, I found the car you are talking about...
But the fenders still looks different to me, and indeed the only Fiat based cars in that starting grid should be #7-Stanguellini 2800 and #10-Maserati-Fiat 1500 Speciale
Drivers added in the list in the first page!
Time for the Black Hole... and only two cars left... let's go!!!
This is a picture of Barbieri and his Maerati... I think this could be the Piacenza race, cause the #134 fit the numbers of the other cars... but I'm not really sure about it...
I have found the following grid positions listed on a website hich I have found to generally be reliable:
1. Franco Cortese Ferrari 125 Spyder No 128
2. Renato Balestrero Stanguellini 2800 No 126
3. Giovanna Maria Cornaggia Medici Alfa Romeo
4. Nino Rovelli BMW 328
5. Enrico Adanti Lancia Aprilia
6. Dei Alfa Romeo
7. * Bruno Maserati
8. Mario Angiolini Maserati 6CS/46
9. Aldo Bianchi Lancia Aprilia
10. Azzi Lancia Aprilia
11. Aldo Ranzini Lancia Aprilia or Maserati
12 Beltracchini Auto Avio Construzioni tipo 815
13. * Danzi Lancia Aprilia
14. Guido Barbieri Maserati 6CS/46
15. * Cattina Alfa Romeo
? Bracco
Did not start (practice accident)
No 166 Giuseppe Farina Ferrari 125 Spyder Corsa
* Drivers listed as non-starters
Does this help identify the last few?
Quote from: D-type on November 06, 2012, 04:46:33 PM
I have found the following grid positions listed on a website hich I have found to generally be reliable:
1. Franco Cortese Ferrari 125 Spyder No 128
2. Renato Balestrero Stanguellini 2800 No 126
3. Giovanna Maria Cornaggia Medici Alfa Romeo
4. Nino Rovelli BMW 328
5. Enrico Adanti Lancia Aprilia
6. Dei Alfa Romeo
7. * Bruno Maserati
8. Mario Angiolini Maserati 6CS/46
9. Aldo Bianchi Lancia Aprilia
10. Azzi Lancia Aprilia
11. Aldo Ranzini Lancia Aprilia or Maserati
12 Beltracchini Auto Avio Construzioni tipo 815
13. * Danzi Lancia Aprilia
14. Guido Barbieri Maserati 6CS/46
15. * Cattina Alfa Romeo
? Bracco
Did not start (practice accident)
No 166 Giuseppe Farina Ferrari 125 Spyder Corsa
* Drivers listed as non-starters
Does this help identify the last few?
That list is indeed good, but you can see that the starting positions are far from the period pictures...
As stated before by sixtee5cuda the cars left are Bruno's Maserati, and two Aprilia.
But in the picture we have only two of them!!
Quote from: sixtee5cuda on October 29, 2012, 07:47:48 AM
My research indicates the unsolved cars are either 2 Lancias, or a Lancia and a Maserati. #9 being a coupe should make it easy to find, but it hasn't turned out that way.
The driver of #8, the Aprilia Touring is unknown to me, so the drivers left are four: Bruno (Maserati), Bianchi, Adanti and Danzi.
I have found two cars that match the cars in the picture... I'm not at all sure about them, but if you find them we can discuss about it and I can give you the two points...
If you can prove in some way the identification of the cars #9 and #12 that's really good!!
I hope to find a solution soon...
I don't know any more than I found on that website. I simply hoped the information might help someone close this out.
I think it's time to move this puzzle to the solved section...
For two very easy points find me two cars which can fit the puzzle cars #9 and #12... I think they are both Lancia Aprilia, one with a closed bodywork and the other with a more common open body... I have two cars which can be the right two... if you find them the points are yours...
PS - I'm not sure at all tha the cars I have are really the correct cars... but I don't think it is possible to find the correct cars with the pictures we have...
I will need to make notes from the posts so far, because of the huge amount of information which has been offered, but a quick glance at the puzzle makes me think #9 could be this, the 1937 Lancia Aprilia by Pininfarina which came 26th in the 1938 Mille Miglia driven by Aldo Marazza. As I said, I have no proof, just a "feeling".
And could #12 be this, a Lancia Aprilia 1350 Sport.?
I have been checking a few references, and can find no absolute confirmation about the puzzle cars. The photo shows 15 cars, and other pictures of the start do not show any more than that number. The "certain site" which has been referred to claims that there were only 13 starters - perhaps they were going by official records, and that the organisers allowed 2 cars to actually start which had been damaged in practice, but fixed in time for the start. These would be Cattina's Alfa, and almost certainly one of the Lancia Aprilia entries - there's nothing in the puzzle photo which looks like an additional Maserati. I reckon they would have been placed by the organisers at the back of the grid - the powerful Alfa has already made up ground, but the puzzle Lancia #12, is still there. Could this be the car of Danzi?
Although the "certain site" is not always accurate, we have to believe that some of the records are correct. They claim that 2 Aprilia cars started 5th (Adanti) and 9th (Bianchi) on the grid. I don't believe for one moment that a tuned production engine would achieve a starting-grid place of 5th against Ferrari, Maserati, Alfa etc opposition, but the 9th place would fit in with the Touring-bodied car in #8 so this could be Aldo Bianchi. That means that the "Jaray-style" berlinetta #9 is being driven by Enrico Adanti.
Those special-bodied Aprilias were not really very fast. Aldo Bianchi won his class in the 1947 Mille Miglia, but he finished almost 2 hours behind the winner of the 1100cc class (which was some guy called Nuvolari whoever he was). I'm only guessing again. but the 2 races were in the same year, so it's probably the same car - if anyone has photos of the '47 MM they may be able to solve this.
I'm still trying to find absolute proof......
Quote from: nicanary on September 23, 2013, 10:12:37 AMI reckon they would have been placed by the organisers at the back of the grid - the powerful Alfa has already made up ground, but the puzzle Lancia #12, is still there.
I don't think that the #11 Alfa started behind cars #12 and #10... the picture was shooted early after the start and the positions of the cars should be the same of the starting grid: you can see that in reply #38, where the #11 is between Touring Aprilia (#8) and Sail Alfa (#15)
(http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19065.0;attach=39043;image)
(http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19065.0;attach=39830;image)
The grid should be:
BMW Maserati Ferrari
(Rovelli) (Angiolini) (Cortese)
Stanguellini Aprilia Alfa Maserati
(Balestrero) (Azzi) (Dei) (Barbieri)
Aprilia Alfa Alfa-Sail
(?) (Cattina) (Cornaggia)
#9 Maserati Aprilia Auto Avio
(?) (Bracco) (Ranzini) (Beltracchini)
#12
(?)
Quote from: nicanary on September 23, 2013, 07:25:06 AM
I will need to make notes from the posts so far, because of the huge amount of information which has been offered, but a quick glance at the puzzle makes me think #9 could be this, the 1937 Lancia Aprilia by Pininfarina which came 26th in the 1938 Mille Miglia driven by Aldo Marazza. As I said, I have no proof, just a "feeling".
I think the same about car #9... this is the car that IMO fitted in the best way the puzzle car...
Quote from: nicanary on September 23, 2013, 10:12:37 AMAlthough the "certain site" is not always accurate, we have to believe that some of the records are correct.
Maybe the problem could be in the source of the recors... old magazines are not always 100% accurate...
Quote from: nicanary on September 23, 2013, 10:12:37 AMThey claim that 2 Aprilia cars started 5th (Adanti) and 9th (Bianchi) on the grid. I don't believe for one moment that a tuned production engine would achieve a starting-grid place of 5th against Ferrari, Maserati, Alfa etc opposition, but the 9th place would fit in with the Touring-bodied car in #8 so this could be Aldo Bianchi. That means that the "Jaray-style" berlinetta #9 is being driven by Enrico Adanti.
This could be a good guess... :-\
Wikipedia sais Bianchi won his class at 1947 MM with an Aprilia Touring spider... #8 ??
The Bianchi Mille Miglia car... ;)
Quote from: Iluvatar on September 23, 2013, 03:23:16 PM
The Bianchi Mille Miglia car... ;)
They look VERY similar.
I agree with you about the starting positions. I was wrong. I believe that the two mystery starters (the Cattina Alfa and one of the Lancia Aprilias) maybe broke during practice but were repaired in time for the race, and the organisers allowed them to start in the positions they held on practice times. You make a good point about the records on that "certain site" - maybe they were taken from magazines or newspapers of the time, and those magazine reports were not aware that 2 extra cars had been allowed to start.
If only we could find a good quality picture of the back of the grid! That unidentified Lancia may be forever in the Black Hole- the photo I selected from library images is only a vague similarity.
Quote from: nicanary on September 23, 2013, 06:48:05 PM
If only we could find a good quality picture of the back of the grid! That unidentified Lancia may be forever in the Black Hole- the photo I selected from library images is only a vague similarity.
I have a car which could be the one we are looking for... it's indeed similar... it's an Aprilia and fitted the puzzle car... what is it?? The point can be yours... ;)
I've found this one, which was supposedly built in 1938. The shape of the wings on the puzzle car remind me of a Jaguar XK120, and this is the most similar. There is no real information on the sites where it is pictured.
Quote from: nicanary on September 24, 2013, 12:00:27 PM
I've found this one, which was supposedly built in 1938. The shape of the wings on the puzzle car remind me of a Jaguar XK120, and this is the most similar. There is no real information on the sites where it is pictured.
Yes! I think this is the mistery car #12... it's a Zagato Lancia Aprilia, driven by Villoresi at 1938 Mille Miglia...
I think I can finally close this puzzle! :)
This puzzle is now closed... but I'll give a point to everyone who can prove (with better picture or with reliable sources) the identification of car #9 and #12...
...thanks to all the contributor!
:applause: :applause: :applause:
Just out of interest, I found more images of what we believe is car #9 - the 1937 Lancia Aprilia Aerodinamica coupe by Pininfarina. One shows the very stylish rear view, and the other shows the car in what must be early form, with a smaller grille and spats over the wheels. The interesting thing is that I have also seen a photo of the car in this "spatted" form taking part in what looks like the Mille Miglia, and carrying race number 72. This is the number it had in the 1938 Mille Miglia when it finished 26th, but in that race photos show it without spats and with the more traditional Lancia grille.
The rear view...
Quote from: nicanary on September 24, 2013, 03:51:20 PM
Just out of interest, I found more images of what we believe is car #9 - the 1937 Lancia Aprilia Aerodinamica coupe by Pininfarina. One shows the very stylish rear view, and the other shows the car in what must be early form, with a smaller grille and spats over the wheels. The interesting thing is that I have also seen a photo of the car in this "spatted" form taking part in what looks like the Mille Miglia, and carrying race number 72. This is the number it had in the 1938 Mille Miglia when it finished 26th, but in that race photos show it without spats and with the more traditional Lancia grille.
There were two similar Pinin Farina Aprilia Aerodinamica (or at least two versions of the same car)... the "spatted" car is an early version, with a different grille, but also the second version had in some moment the spats, at least on the rear wheels...
You can easly distinguish the two versions from the side: the former had the "side marker"...; and from behind: the latter had air vents on the tail...
Here two rear picture of the cars.
A third version of the Aprilia Pinin Farina aerodinamica.
[attachimg=1]
Quote from: nicanary on September 24, 2013, 03:51:20 PM
Just out of interest, I found more images of what we believe is car #9 - the 1937 Lancia Aprilia Aerodinamica coupe by Pininfarina. One shows the very stylish rear view, and the other shows the car in what must be early form, with a smaller grille and spats over the wheels. The interesting thing is that I have also seen a photo of the car in this "spatted" form taking part in what looks like the Mille Miglia, and carrying race number 72. This is the number it had in the 1938 Mille Miglia when it finished 26th, but in that race photos show it without spats and with the more traditional Lancia grille.
The two car with #72... they are indeed different versions... so in two different races...
Yes, that "race" photo is the one that I found also. As you say, it must be a different race.
About #3, it should be called a Rovelli-BMW. According to Curami's book, Nino Rovelli got a chassis and an engine of a BMW 328. He bought by Touring some parts of the barchetta developed for the 1941 Berlin-Rome race, and have it assembled in a workshop in Castellanza with the help of Colli. It should not be confused with the more known BMW by Touring.
Just to add more details...