What's this, from when - for 1 point :)
Experts ?
French? Panhard ?
Not French !
VW base car ?
Not VW base !
from Germany?
Yes !
Porsche 356 power ?
Without doubt !
Locked for you !
Can't find it. I'll be at work later, so best thing is to unlock it.
It's obviously an "eigenbau", and I reckon that it's at the Nurburgring. Apart from that, I can't think of anything !
Yes , for the Nurburgring !
But it's not an "eigenbau" !
Unlocked !
You mean he made more than one? It looks like it was built by a blind man with some cans and tin snips. Was he a well-known Porsche special builder ?
Yes , a well-known Porsche special builder !
Pros ?
Could it be as simple as Glöckler?
Yes , Porsche Glöckler !
Locked for you !
1953 Glöckler - Porsche.
Another picture at Nürburgring.
Yes , Glöckler - Porsche special , for the Nurburgring 1953 !
Another point for you !
I'm a bit confused by this. From the start the specials built by Glockler and Ramelow had a central driving position - the car which is third in the last photo (#42) is a Glockler Porsche. I still can't find any record of the puzzle car being made by them. Does anyone know which chassis this car was ?
Is it a German registration?
Remarkably, it's a Dutch registration. A pre-1952 one I believe.
Quote from: Oswald on July 01, 2013, 09:26:57 AM
Remarkably, it's a Dutch registration. A pre-1952 one I believe.
I have found the exact puzzle photo at last on Google Images - it's simply captioned as a Glockler Special in the German Grand Prix 1954, which is complete nonsense. It didn't take part in the GP, and so far I have been unable to find details of support races at that meeting. In addition, I believe that by that date the Glockler cars were far more sophisticated - this must be an early model, especially since the registration dates to 1952.
The letters of Porsche can clearly be read on the nose of the car. I believed when answering the puzzle that it was an "eigenbau" because the quality of the bodywork was poor, especially compared to Glockler's usual work. I'm not wholly convinced that the puzzle photo was captioned correctly on the internet - it's my belief (and I'm no doubt wrong!) that this is another special built on an early Porsche frame by a Dutch enthusiast, and nothing to do with Walter Glockler.
I reckon the answer lies with an expert. Anyone have access to the 356Registry?
I modify the answer while waiting for the expert Porsche ! ???
First thing that comes to my mind after browsing through the results on a well-known-website-with-racing-statistics is that the picture at Nuerburgring among the other cars ('Gloeckler.jpg') might have been taken during 1954 Rheinland Pfalz Preis. I'm thinking of 1954, because sixth in that sequence of cars you can see a very distinctive EMW sportscar of 1954 with most probably Arthur Rosenhammer driving, fifth would be Paul Thiel in a 1953 EMW following a Lotus Mark VIII of Colin Chapman himself, Erwin Bauer or Dan Margulies (?), third is a Gloeckler of course, first is a 1954 Borgward of Hans-Hugo Hartmann, I suppose. There, in the back, running eighth, I guess, I can see Hans Fischhaber's Lancia Eigenbau, which was also entered for that race.
In the list I have I can see four Porsche based cars with no numbers identified (as there is no car 34 among those whose numbers are known):
Otto Mathe (but I suppose he should have raced his Fetzenflieger? EDIT: or a 356 Coupe)
Helmut Niedermayr (he raced Rometsch Porsche, I believe, which was found more or less complete many many years later, which does not let me suppose it could be a Rometsch rebuilt after some accident, but who knows...)
Bernhard Cappenberg (allow me to make a supposition he's the car #42 on the picture)
Huber (Alfred (Albert?) Huber from Nuernberg who drove a 1.5 Porsche in 1954 or Austrian Friedrich Huber who was noted in a BMW that year?)
Quote from: nicanary on July 01, 2013, 11:08:42 AM
I reckon the answer lies with an expert. Anyone have access to the 356Registry?
I'm a 356 Registry member and will post this question on the forum, as a matter of fact I found out about Autopuzzles on the Registry Forum.
Quote from: Oswald on July 01, 2013, 09:26:57 AM
Remarkably, it's a Dutch registration. A pre-1952 one I believe.
Could the license plate be from Switzerland, some of the Glöcklers were presented at the Geneva Show and were painted red and white? Could the puzzle car be red and white?
The site where I found the picture I posted did call it Glöckler, that's why I found it.
I think I've found your source yesterday, indeed the car is identified as Gloeckler in 1954. I'm now pretty sure the race is what I supposed earlier, and it was a support sportscar race for a 1954 German Grand Prix.
There were six Gloeckler cars, right? None of them looks identic, so if it's one of those it must have been rebuilt and may I suggest privately, not by Gloeckler himself, as he would have done that better.
Quote from: faksta on July 02, 2013, 02:03:21 AM
I think I've found your source yesterday, indeed the car is identified as Gloeckler in 1954. I'm now pretty sure the race is what I supposed earlier, and it was a support sportscar race for a 1954 German Grand Prix.
There were six Gloeckler cars, right? None of them looks identic, so if it's one of those it must have been rebuilt and may I suggest privately, not by Gloeckler himself, as he would have done that better.
I have just spent a bit of time on Google looking for more information on that race. I think we can say you are correct about which race it was - the numbers on the cars are all correct apart from the REAL Glockler, which is painted with #42, but the records say it was #40. Everything else agrees. The leading cars in the race have already passed by and we are seeing the middle bunch in the field. There were three separate classes in the race, which were started at 3-minute intervals I believe (the site I got this from was in German, and I haven't studied that language for 44 years), and this was typical for such a long track, to keep spectators interested.
I also think your deduction is correct, that it must be one of the four Porsches which are in the records but have no allocated number. The "usual sites" both quote the same details. I notice that the mystery car carries a registration plate, which suggests that it was registered for road use, and probably built from a road-going 356. The Glockler cars were built just for racing, as far as I know.
This is fascinating. We WILL get the answer !
I don't have any sources in my hands at the moment, but I think there should have been more than one Gloeckler in the race, so I wouldn't wonder if both #40 and #42 were Gloecklers.
Also, weren't all sportscars road legal back then? Even those built with racing as a primary target. A program for that race would solve the mystery in a moment, if only somebody had one...
I think you're right that Cappenberg was in #42. The team he drove for had 2 Glockler Porsches.
I've asked the Autosport "Nostalgia Forum" if anyone has a programme for that day's events. I really can't understand why the "certain site" we normally refer to has not got all the race numbers. It was hardly an obscure event.
So far at the 356 Registry two not Glöckler answers and a suggestion that it may be a Dutch Special, but no positive ID.
Quote from: ropat53 on July 01, 2013, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: nicanary on July 01, 2013, 11:08:42 AM
I reckon the answer lies with an expert. Anyone have access to the 356Registry?
I'm a 356 Registry member and will post this question on the forum, as a matter of fact I found out about Autopuzzles on the Registry Forum.
Quote from: Oswald on July 01, 2013, 09:26:57 AM
Remarkably, it's a Dutch registration. A pre-1952 one I believe.
Could the license plate be from Switzerland, some of the Glöcklers were presented at the Geneva Show and were painted red and white? Could the puzzle car be red and white?
The site where I found the picture I posted did call it Glöckler, that's why I found it.
No, it's definitely Dutch. It's a so called 'Provincial plate' - a number indicating the area (or county) where it was registered. This system was used until 1952 when a new Nationwide system was adopted. The 'N' in this particular number stands for Noord-Brabant. This is a county in the south of The Netherlands, lined up directly to the Belgian border.
You know, now I have a feeling that the two pictures might have not been made during the same race or at least during the different sessions. On a puzzle picture the car does not have a little hunk behind the driver (or is it just some spot on a German GP shot?) and the driver on a puzzle picture looks to be wearing overalls of a lighter color.
The Dutch numberplate makes the whole thing very strange, though and I can't really see whether the numberplates are identic on the two pictures as well, ny the way - the shot from the race is too small :(
I think it is probably the same race - it would be extraordinary if the car carried the same number for two separate races on two occasions. I wondered if the car belonged to a different class within the same race, and was being overtaken by the faster cars, but I don't think so. The race started at 10.30am, and was in three classes - Rennsportwagen (sports-racing cars) up to 1500cc, Seriensportwagen (production sports cars?) and GT cars up to 1600cc, and the same again up to 1300cc. The fastest cars set off first, and the other two classes set off at 3-minute intervals.
The race number of the mystery car fits in with the numbers of the other cars in the photo, so it's one of the 1500cc sports-racers. It looks like it's early in the race, since they are still close together, and the leaders in works Porsche 550s have gone past the camera. A German-language site I have found has a few photos of the race, but nothing with the puzzle car. It's interesting that the car has Dutch plates, because the unidentified Porsche entries are all German or Austrian drivers.
The "certain site" most of us know about does not have an entry list or programme, and asks on their site for assistance in finding these details. I do not hold out much hope - I have had no response from The Nostalgia Forum. Surely someone in the happy family of motor sports historians has a programme ? My own collection is fairly extensive, but confined to UK events because overseas items are too expensive !
I have heard from a respected member of The Nostalgia Forum - his records show that car #34 was driven by a M. Hezemans. This would make sense since it is a Dutch name, and indeed he may be related to 60s/70s Dutch driver Toine Hezemans.
I have referred back to the results records for the race, and notice that there were 27 starters in the race, but only records for 25 of those cars as to where they finished or retired. There are two mystery cars in the race, and I bet one of them was this puzzle car. I can't believe it was taking part in one of the other two classes - they started 3 and 6 minutes respectively after the fast guys and in addition this car is undoubtedly a sports-racing machine, rather than a production or GT car.
So I reckon the answer to the puzzle is a Porsche Special based on a 356, driven by M.Hezemans, in the 1954 Rheinland Pfalz Preis at the Nurburgring. The caption to the Google Images photo is correct to some extent - it is a Porsche and it is at the MEETING of the 1954 German GP.
I've just found out that the driver is probably Mathieu Hezemans, the father of Toine Hezemans. He drove in the 1956 Le Mans 24-hrs in a Porsche 550RS entered by Wolfgang Seidel and partnered by Carel de Beaufort. The German Wiki entry for Toine mentions this and that he too was a racing driver.
That sounds very probable indeed! I'll take a look into the book on Dutch cars at home to check whether there could have been a similar Dutch Porsche 'eigenbouw' - I'm still not much convinced that it's a Gloeckler machine, even if it was sold to Netherlands.
Thanks! :)
Faksta, you are right, in Autodesign in Nederland there's a picture of the Hezemans special. The original version was built in 1953 with Volkswagen and Porsche parts. It was called Porsche-special or Motorkracht-special.
There's a sort of explanation on why this was called a Glöckler Porsche:
Weer later heette de auto Porsche-Trenkel, omdat er onderdelen van deze Oostenrijkse opvoerspecialist in verwekt waren
The funny thing is that the Porsche-Trenkel special is being referred to as a Glöckler-Porsche in Brian Long's Porsche Racing Specials
The complete 'Hezemans' chapter from 'Autodesign in Nederland' translated:
Car dealer Thieu Hezemans from Eindhoven, oldest member of the famous racing family, drove in the fifties with 2 versions of a Porsche special. The version from 1953 made use of basic components from Volkswagen and Porsche and had a home-build carbody nicknamed 'Strijkijzer' (Iron). The updated version that popped up in the 1955 season had a much nicer finished and streamlined aluminium carbody. The car entered as Porsche-special but also as Motorkracht-special (engine power-special). Later again, the car was named Porsche-Trenkel, because parts from this Austrian tuner were used.
I said we would solve the riddle, and we did. Well done everybody. I think there is no doubt that it is the first special from 1953 - it looks like a flatiron and very homemade compared to Glockler's work.
I still think the point belongs to Ropat. He solved it with information from the web, even if the caption was not very accurate.
:scratch:
Picture that is present in the 'Autodesign in Nederland' book. But I don't know which version it is:
That'll be the one he built in conjunction with Trenkel, I reckon.
(Note the Lotus Elite - that'll make it the late 50s)
Only 6 Glöckler and
Quote from: nicanary on July 03, 2013, 11:15:44 AM
I said we would solve the riddle, and we did. Well done everybody. I think there is no doubt that it is the first special from 1953 - it looks like a flatiron and very homemade compared to Glockler's work.
I still think the point belongs to Ropat. He solved it with information from the web, even if the caption was not very accurate.
I really don't think I deserve the point, after all I didn't solve the puzzle, you did.
What I found on the Internet is one more mistake, only the other day it was the opposite, I solved a puzzle that had been wrongly answered thanks to an Internet mistake, and I got a point: http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=25363.0
I think the idea about Autopuzzles is to know the answer or find the
right answer.
Quote from: faksta on July 03, 2013, 05:03:22 AM
You know, now I have a feeling that the two pictures might have not been made during the same race or at least during the different sessions. On a puzzle picture the car does not have a little hunk behind the driver (or is it just some spot on a German GP shot?) and the driver on a puzzle picture looks to be wearing overalls of a lighter color.
The Dutch numberplate makes the whole thing very strange, though and I can't really see whether the numberplates are identic on the two pictures as well, ny the way - the shot from the race is too small :(
The original photo shows a rear view mirror on the [driver's] left hand side which appears to be missing in the race photo. To further muddy the waters, in the early fifties cars racing in Germany kept the same number all year, allocated, I think, in batches by class- hence the race numbers for the 1952 German GP starting at 101
A bit like NASCAR then. So the original puzzle photo may not have been taken at the race which is shown on the other photo. ARRRGGGHHHHHHHHH.........! I resign.
Only at Autopuzzles...
I think we can be more or less sure now that it is Thieu Hezemans' early Porsche special. Thanks! :)