I'm taking a leaf out of Iluvatar's book (as they say in English) by presenting a starting grid with the participants shown by numbers (apologies for the amateurish numbering but I don't have the tools to present it in a more professional manner).
Anyway I hope you can identify the numbers against each car.
There is 17 points on offer here - one for the event - correct title, date and location and then one point each for identifying each car and driver. Please note that information regarding racing numbers and finishing positions don't earn points but are welcome anyway.
There were apparently 15 starters in this particular race therefore car 16 is a mystery to me (a point will be awarded if if you can identify it with proof).
Points will be awarded when the puzzle is solved (perhaps with the exception of car 16)
Answers will be recorded at reply #48
Yikes! That's a tough one :)
Perhaps, but once you identify the event it shouldn't be that difficult...... ;D
Is it a European race like a Grand Prix or is it American
Is it a Italian Grand Prix
Please one question at a time.....
To start the ball rolling I can tell you that it was in Europe (therefore not USA) but it's not the Italian GP.....
france???
germany
is it a major country like spain or portugal or small like monaco,etc
Does the race take place in the 1930's
Quote from: rosenbergm on February 07, 2013, 08:23:42 PM
is it a major country like spain or portugal or small like monaco,etc
In terms of area it's not as small as Monaco or as large as Germany......
Late 1940s?
Belgium
switzerland
Bremgarten, Bern?
Erlen?
Lausanne .27/28 August 1949 Prix du Leman formule 2. . 1 Cooper T9 JAP Stirling Moss, 2 Ferrari 166 Felice Bonetto, 3 Simca Gordini T11 Rudolph Fischer, 8 AFM Hans Stuck, 6 OSCA MT4 Dorino Serafini, 11 Ferrari 166 Mario Tadini, 4 Simca Gordini T15 Raymond Sommer, 5 Simca Gordini T15 Maurice Trintignant??
If it is the formula 2 race held at Lausanne on August 27/28 1949 here is what I found of course give Richard his points here is wha I found
Fin St Driver # Owner Car Laps Money Status Laps Led
1 1 Raymond Sommer 2 Equipe Gordini Simca-Gordini T15 60 running
2 Robert Manzon 6 Equipe Gordini Simca-Gordini T15 60 running
3 Maurice Trintignant 4 Equipe Gordini Simca-Gordini T11 60 running
4 Hans Stuck 22 Hans Stuck AFM 1/BMW 59 running
5 Felice Bonetto 12 Scuderia Ferrari Ferrari 166C 58 running
6 Eugène Martin 8 Equipe Gordini Simca-Gordini T11 56 running
7 Alexander Orley 28 Equipe Belge Veritas Monoposto/BMW 54 running
8 André Canonica 36 André Canonica Cisitalia D46/Fiat 54 running
9 John Heath 24 HW Motors Alta 48 running
10 Claude Bernheim 34 Claude Bernheim Cisitalia D46/Fiat 44 did not finish
11 Mario Tadini 14 Scuderia Ferrari Ferrari 166C 24 did not finish
12 Stirling Moss 26 Alfred Moss Cooper T9/JAP 20 did not finish
13 Dorino Serafini 18 Dorino Serafini Osca 15 did not finish
14 Ferdinando Righetti 16 Ferdinando Righetti Stanguellini/Fiat 14 did not finish
15 Humbert Joly 38 Humbert Joly Cisitalia D46/Fiat did not finish
I found more info
Pos Cla. # Driver, Nationality Entrant Car - Engine Time, Laps Reason Out
1 1 2 Raymond Sommer, F Equipe Gordini Simca-Gordini T15 1:47'23.0"
2 2 6 Robert Manzon, F Equipe Gordini Simca-Gordini T15 1:47'28.3"
3 3 4 Maurice Trintignant, F Equipe Gordini Simca-Gordini T11 1:48'45.6"
4 4 22 Hans Stuck, D/A Hans Stuck AFM 1 - BMW 59
5 5 12 Felice Bonetto, I Scuderia Ferrari Ferrari 166C 58
6 6 8 Eugene Martin, F Equipe Gordini Simca-Gordini T11 56
7 7 28 "Orley" (Alexander Todd), USA Equipe Belge Orley Spl (Veritas Monoposto) - BMW 54
8 8 36 André Canonica, CH André Canonica Cisitalia D46 - Fiat 54
9 9 24 John Heath, GB HW Motors Alta 48
10 DNF 34 Claude Bernheim, CH Claude Bernheim Cisitalia D46 - Fiat 44
11 DNF 14 Mario Tadini, I Scuderia Ferrari Ferrari 166C 24
12 DNF 26 Stirling Moss, GB Alfred Moss Cooper T9 - JAP 20
13 DNF 18 Dorino Serafini, I Dorino Serafini Osca 15
14 DNF 16 Ferdinando Righetti, I Ferdinando Righetti Stanguellini - Fiat 14
15 DNF 38 Humbert Joly, CH Humbert Joly Cisitalia D46 - Fiat 0
16 DNA 32 Alfred Dattner, CH Alfred Dattner Simca-Gordini T11
17 DNA 40 Max de Terra, CH Max de Terra Cisitalia D46 - Fiat
18 DNA 42 Hans Jäger Hans Jäger Cisitalia D46 - Fiat
19 DNA 44 Walter Wüst, CH Walter Wüst Cisitalia D46 - Fiat
20 DNA 46 Pierre Nessi Pierre Nessi Serval - Vincent/HRD
21 DNA 48 Louis Chiron, MC Louis Chiron -
7 Simca Gordini Robert Manzon?
9 Simca Gordini T15S Eugene Martin?
Richard Fridd and rosenbergm have been busy with this one!
You're going to have to wait until this evening until I go through your replies but in the meantime I'll LOCK it for richard fridd as he has answered the question regarding the race and identified several puzzle numbers against specific cars.
rosenbergm, as you have also discovered the source of the answers I suggest you wait until I've answered richard fridd and reveal some correct answers before you continue guessing.....
Until this evening then...... :popcorn:
10 Cisitalia D46/48 Claude Bernheim?
Here's a larger photo without the numbers to help with identification -
13 HW Alta John Heath?
Okay as it's not fair that richard is still posting answers whilst I haven't had time to answer yet I'll open it again for others in the meantime
14 Cisitalia D46 Humbert Joly, 15 Cisitalia D46 Andre Canonica?
12 Stanguellini 1500 Nando Righetti, and 16 Veritas Meteor driven by Orley. My proof of 16 is on page 577 of Adriano Cimarosti's "Grand Prix Suisse" in the "grille de depart" section at the top of the page- I wish I had found that earlier!
So front row Sommer Bonetto Moss, row 2 Fischer Stuck, row 3 Trintignant Serafini Tadini, row 4 Martin Heath, row 5 Bernheim Manzon Righetti, row 6 Joly Canonica and Orley at the back with a qualifying time of 2'01,4" compared with the pole time of 1'46,3"
Quote from: richard fridd on February 09, 2013, 07:21:45 AM
Lausanne .27/28 August 1949 Prix du Leman formule 2. . 1 Cooper T9 JAP Stirling Moss, 2 Ferrari 166 Felice Bonetto, 3 Simca Gordini T11 Rudolph Fischer, 8 AFM Hans Stuck, 6 OSCA MT4 Dorino Serafini, 11 Ferrari 166 Mario Tadini, 4 Simca Gordini T15 Raymond Sommer, 5 Simca Gordini T15 Maurice Trintignant??
You are correct although I have this particular race taking place on the 27th August 1949 and entitled II Prix de Léman held at Le Bléchenette, Lausanne. The II Prix refers to the Formula 2 or Formula B that it was loosely termed at that time.
My source doesn't appear infallible however as it states that the race was held on 7th September 1949. I believe 27th August is the correct date. So richard fridd takes the first point for the event.
Now on to the cars -
No. 1 is Stirling Moss - Cooper T9 JAP (No.26) solved by
richard friddNo. 2 is Felice Bonetto - Ferrari 166C (No.12) solved by
richard friddNo. 3 - is a mystery at the moment as I have no trace of Rudi Fischer or of a car No.30....
No. 4 is Raymond Sommer - Simca-Gordini T15 (No.2) solved by
richard friddNo. 5 is Maurice Trintignant - Simca-Gordini T15 (No.5) solved by
richard friddNo. 6 is Dorino Serafini - Osca (No.18) solved by
richard friddNo. 7 is ......
No. 8 is ......
No. 9 is Eugene Martin - Simca-Gordini T11 (No.eight) solved by
richard friddNo.10 is Claude Bernheim -Cisitalia D46 Fiat (No.34) solved by
richard friddNo.11 is Mario Tadini - Ferrari 166C (No.12) solved by
richard friddNo.12 is......
No.13 is John Heath - HW Alta (No.24) solved by
richard friddNo.14 is Humbert Joly - Cisitalia D46 Fiat - solved by
richard friddNo.15 is Andre Canonica - Cisitalia D46 Fiat - solved by
richard friddNo.16 is......
Okay it would appear that Richard has virtually solved this puzzle but I'm awaiting some confirmation (visual) on his source to complete a few anomalies.
Cars 7/8 are mixed up probably due to my amateurish numbering.... so that has to be corrected.
Still not sure about Nos.12 & 16 and will await further confirmation on that.....
I'll also award a point to rosenbergm for identifying Switzerland as the country where the event was held.
I'll award points when I have cleared up the anomalies.
Thanks for the puzzle and I hope you have received my email of the starting grid details from the Grand Prix Suisse book which I have resent. If not please let me know so that I can I can resend again
Looking at the photo is that number 30 displayed on the far right car on the front row? Although my Blackberry screen is small!
"Orley" Alexander Todd is als mentioned in reply number 27 I see
"Orley" Alexander Todd is als mentioned in reply number 27 I see
Quote from: richard fridd on February 09, 2013, 03:57:33 PM
Thanks for the puzzle and I hope you have received my email of the starting grid details from the Grand Prix Suisse book which I have resent. If not please let me know so that I can I can resend again
I hope you mean you've re-sent it rather than you resent it....!
Quote from: richard fridd on February 09, 2013, 03:57:33 PM
Thanks for the puzzle and I hope you have received my email of the starting grid details from the Grand Prix Suisse book which I have resent. If not please let me know so that I can I can resend again
PM sent
Email re-sent to the address supplied.
Solution/progress tomorrow...... :)
Please swap 7+8 to conclude this fantastic puzzle!
Please accept my apologies to everyone who has been patiently waiting for the results of this puzzle.
It has taken some time due to the fact that my source for the results of this event were inaccurate and thanks to Richard Fridd who provided me with proof of the true situation.
My photo (from the Orsini/Zagari history on OSCA) did not tie up with the results that rosenbergm posted earlier.
Now I've managed to sort it out with the following solution - each car and the event solved by richard fridd (with his recent adjustments taken in to consideration).
Puzzle no. - Driver - Car - Finishing position - Race no.
No. 1 is Stirling Moss - Cooper T9 JAP - DNF - (#26)
No. 2 is Felice Bonetto - Ferrari 166C - 5th - (#12)
No. 3 is Rudi Fischer - Simca-Gordini T11 - DNF - (#30)
No. 4 is Raymond Sommer - Simca-Gordini T15 - 1st - (#2)
No. 5 is Maurice Trintignant - Simca-Gordini T15 - 3rd - (#5)
No. 6 is Dorino Serafini - Osca - DNF - (#18)
No. 7 is Hans Stuck - AFM-BMW - 4th - (#22)
No. 8 is Robert Manzon - Simca-Gordini T15 - 2nd - (#6)
No. 9 is Eugene Martin - Simca-Gordini T11 Sports - 6th - (#8)
No.10 is Claude Bernheim - Cisitalia D46 Fiat - DNF - (#34)
No.11 is Mario Tadini - Ferrari 166C - DNF - (#14)
No.12 is Ferdinando Righetti - Stanguellini-Fiat - DNF - (#16)
No.13 is John Heath - HW-Alta - 9th - (#24)
No.14 is Humbert Joly - Cisitalia D46 Fiat - DNF - (#38)
No.15 is Andre Canonica - Cisitalia D46 Fiat - 8th - (#36)
No.16 is "Orley" (Alexander Todd) - Veritas Meteor - 7th - (#28)
So congratulations Richard, you've just earned 17 points (16 points for the cars and one for the event) which now promotes you to Expert status. Your reference source was 'spot on'!
I'm also awarding 2 points to rosenbergm as he initially guessed the event was in Switzerland and for posting the same list of cars I had initially. Well done to you too.
Far from being put off by the puzzle being quickly solved in the rookie section, I intend to post some more similar puzzles in the future...... :)
:)
Go on. admit it. How many puzzlers took a first look, saw Moss' Cooper, and thought Lake Garda?
My "Black Books" begin in 1954, but anyone who had the previous edition could have presumably got the full grid. The website gives a lot of information but the book is better.
Quote from: nicanary on February 11, 2013, 09:34:08 AM
Go on. admit it. How many puzzlers took a first look, saw Moss' Cooper, and thought Lake Garda?
I did, for one!
A man whom I knew in later times as our agent in Italy was employed by BP as interpreter to the Moss family on that occasion!