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Puzzles, Games and Name That Car => Solved AutoPuzzles => 2013 => Topic started by: targhediferro on July 05, 2013, 10:06:51 AM

Title: Solved TGF-149: Rosengart Vivor LR4PL, 1950
Post by: targhediferro on July 05, 2013, 10:06:51 AM
Just make, model and year for a quite easy point.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: ropat53 on July 05, 2013, 01:35:55 PM
1939 Skoda Popular?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 05, 2013, 03:41:56 PM
Not a Skoda.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: ropat53 on July 05, 2013, 04:28:07 PM
Czech?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 05, 2013, 06:11:29 PM
Not czech.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: Hiawatha on July 08, 2013, 01:43:23 PM
Renault?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: ropat53 on July 08, 2013, 02:18:16 PM
Fiat?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 09, 2013, 04:50:47 AM
Not Renault and not Fiat.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: gilescooperuk on July 10, 2013, 05:19:56 PM
Jowett Bradford Van
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: Bill Murray on July 10, 2013, 05:25:36 PM
Hi Giles..........

I am a bit bored tonight and just sort of looking around.  Did a search on over 200 photos of Jowett Bradford Vans and could not find one with LHD.  Is the photo reversed??.  Not trying to make trouble, but Jowett was not a big exporter to LHD countries as far as I know.

Bill
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: gilescooperuk on July 10, 2013, 05:38:13 PM
Dunno, my dad looked over my shoulder and said that was it. Thought it worth a punt!

It might be the rear door hinges would verify this.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: Bill Murray on July 10, 2013, 05:46:56 PM
Well, as a Father, Grandfather and maybe soon to be a Great Grandfather..............

Dad's are almost always right.

I do wish we had a better perspective on the headlamps which I think are a major clue.

Bill
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 10, 2013, 05:50:31 PM
I'm sorry but sometimes also Fathers are wrong...not a Jowett.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: 4popoid on July 15, 2013, 01:30:27 AM
European marque?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 15, 2013, 05:41:59 AM
Yes, European.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: 4popoid on July 15, 2013, 06:06:20 PM
Belgian marque?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 15, 2013, 06:41:06 PM
Not Belgian.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: 4popoid on July 15, 2013, 06:44:08 PM
Dutch marque?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 15, 2013, 06:57:46 PM
Not Dutch.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: 4popoid on July 15, 2013, 11:06:10 PM
1937 Matford 21CV (V8-76) Van?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 16, 2013, 12:40:23 AM
Not a Matford.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: 4popoid on July 16, 2013, 03:28:44 AM
Although it isn't a Matford, is it French?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 16, 2013, 05:02:37 AM
Yes, it's french!
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: FrontMan on July 16, 2013, 06:05:31 AM
Sorry to have been so quiet of late;...just settling in after our move to the Charente, France.  Amilcar Compound?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 16, 2013, 07:05:32 AM
Welcome back....Not an Amilcar. 
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: kwgibbs on July 16, 2013, 12:57:58 PM
La Licorne?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: FrontMan on July 16, 2013, 02:55:38 PM
Berliet, 1946?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: Hiawatha on July 16, 2013, 03:18:15 PM
Simca?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: 4popoid on July 16, 2013, 03:59:53 PM
Peugeot 203 from about 1948?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 16, 2013, 04:23:11 PM
Quote from: kwgibbs on July 16, 2013, 12:57:58 PM
La Licorne?
Quote from: FrontMan on July 16, 2013, 02:55:38 PM
Berliet, 1946?
Quote from: Hiawatha on July 16, 2013, 03:18:15 PM
Simca?
Quote from: 4popoid on July 16, 2013, 03:59:53 PM
Peugeot 203 from about 1948?
Not La Licorne, not Berliet, not Simca, not Peugeot.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: kwgibbs on July 16, 2013, 05:00:01 PM
Donnet?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: ropat53 on July 16, 2013, 05:14:30 PM
It is a French car with a French body? Doesn't look like one but I'll try Panhard?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: 4popoid on July 16, 2013, 05:22:01 PM
Citroen?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: kwgibbs on July 16, 2013, 05:34:43 PM
Luc Court?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 16, 2013, 05:55:27 PM
I never thought it would nave lasted so long...it's a French car built in little series, entirely French.
Not Donnet, not Panhard, not Citroen, not Luc Court.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: kwgibbs on July 16, 2013, 06:00:14 PM
darmont?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: ropat53 on July 16, 2013, 06:08:05 PM
Rosengart
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: 4popoid on July 16, 2013, 09:55:01 PM
Hotchkiss about 1949?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 17, 2013, 12:48:34 AM
Quote from: ropat53 on July 16, 2013, 06:08:05 PM
Rosengart
Ta-da...yes, it's a Rosengart.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: 4popoid on July 17, 2013, 01:17:35 AM
Is this locked Fabrizio?  If so, and I happen to be correct, give the point to ropat53.  Is this a Rosengart Vivor from about 1950?
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 17, 2013, 01:40:45 AM
No, I haven't locked it because I supposed that Ropat answer was quite a gamble, as the other ones. Now I lock for you because your answer is correct but not complete regarding to my source.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: 4popoid on July 17, 2013, 01:57:46 AM
I'm not sure what more you are looking for, but I can add that that this model, with rear side windows, was called a "break", while the same car without rear side windows was called a "light van".  Also the Rosengart Vivor was based on the LR4 model of the 1930s.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 17, 2013, 03:42:30 AM
The Vivor is actually derived from LR4, but is identified like a particular type, LR4 _ _ .  Locked for you for another guess.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: 4popoid on July 17, 2013, 01:21:38 PM
Ah, I think I have found it.  While the Vivor was advertised as "Le Break Vivor" to distinguish it from the windowless van, which was called Robor, the Vivor also carried the model designation LR 4PL.  Hopefully this model designation is what you are seeking.
Title: Re: TGF-149
Post by: targhediferro on July 17, 2013, 03:50:26 PM
That's the correct name. I think that the designation Vivor Break appeared only in 1951, while in 1950 it was named LR 4PL.  I found that it was a Charbonneau design.  A point for you.
Title: Re: Solved TGF-149: Rosengart Vivor LR4PL, 1950
Post by: Bill Murray on July 17, 2013, 04:08:52 PM
Just to add some information, I found a couple more photos and an article that said the vehicle/s originated at the Paris Auto Show in 1949.  Another designation was also given which may have only been for the show, "Rosengart Vivor LR4-N2".

Bill
Title: Re: Solved TGF-149: Rosengart Vivor LR4PL, 1950
Post by: ropat53 on July 17, 2013, 04:10:45 PM
In the brochure below it's called Le Break and the model is on the license plate LR 4PL.
LR is from Lucien Rosengart
Title: Re: Solved TGF-149: Rosengart Vivor LR4PL, 1950
Post by: Allemano on July 17, 2013, 04:14:32 PM
Isn't 'break' the general French term for caravan?
Title: Re: Solved TGF-149: Rosengart Vivor LR4PL, 1950
Post by: Bill Murray on July 17, 2013, 04:34:44 PM
I think it depends on which country you are from.
A "station wagon" in US English is a "Shooting Break" in Brit English and if I remember a "Gentleman Farmers Vehicle" in Swedish.

I have always translated the French "Break" to mean a wooden or steel bodied "Station Wagon" as I know the term.

The term 'Caravan" has always meant to me a camping or travel vehicle.
Mostly, a towed trailer although I have also seen the term applied to small motorized campers.

Nowadays in my country, they call them SUVs or Crossovers and they are very boring.  No more wood sides and tailgates nor even the false plastic appliques that looked like wood that they used into the 1960's.

Here is what a true "Break/Station Wagon" should look like.

Bill
Title: Re: Solved TGF-149: Rosengart Vivor LR4PL, 1950
Post by: Wendax on July 17, 2013, 04:48:37 PM
To put some things straight: the puzzle car is a Rosengart Vivor 4 CV type LR4PL. It appeared at the Paris Salon in 1950. The break (= station wagon) shown in 1949 was this one: http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=21244, which was still referred to as a Rosengart Supercinq, which had the type designation LR4N2 since its appearance at the Salon de Paris 1938. The Vivor was a commercial failure due to its outdated engine, its lousy quality and its high price. Its production was carried on until 1952, because the Ariette was available only as a sedan at first.
Title: Re: Solved TGF-149: Rosengart Vivor LR4PL, 1950
Post by: Allemano on July 17, 2013, 08:10:32 PM
Quote from: Bill Murray on July 17, 2013, 04:34:44 PM
I think it depends on which country you are from.
A "station wagon" in US English is a "Shooting Break" in Brit English and if I remember a "Gentleman Farmers Vehicle" in Swedish.

I have always translated the French "Break" to mean a wooden or steel bodied "Station Wagon" as I know the term.

The term 'Caravan" has always meant to me a camping or travel vehicle.
Mostly, a towed trailer although I have also seen the term applied to small motorized campers.

Nowadays in my country, they call them SUVs or Crossovers and they are very boring.  No more wood sides and tailgates nor even the false plastic appliques that looked like wood that they used into the 1960's.

Here is what a true "Break/Station Wagon" should look like.

Bill
Shooting Break/Brake has always a sporty flavor as far as I know and Opel called their station wagons 'Caravan' for ages... Peugeot/Citroen call them 'Break' instead while VW said 'Variant' and Ford 'Turnier' to them..
Title: Re: Solved TGF-149: Rosengart Vivor LR4PL, 1950
Post by: Carnut on July 18, 2013, 04:34:06 AM
Quote from: Bill Murray on July 17, 2013, 04:34:44 PM
A "station wagon" in US English is a "Shooting Break" in Brit English
Bill

Shooting BRAKE Bill, not 'Break', but since you're from yon side of the pond I'll forgive you this one transgression!

From Wikipedia:

QUOTE
A brake (French:break), was a horse-drawn carriage used in the 19th and early 20th centuries in the training of horses for draft work. A shooting-brake, was a brake pressed into service to carry beaters, gamekeepers and sportsmen with their dogs, guns and game.

There were purpose-built shooting-brakes designed to carry the driver and a footman or gamekeeper at the front facing forward, and passengers on longitudinal benches, with their dogs, guns and game borne along the sides in slatted racks.

In the 19th century, a brake was a large, four-wheeled carriage-frame with no body, used for breaking in young horses, either singly or in teams of two or four. It has no body parts except for a high seat upon which the driver sits and a small platform for a helper immediately behind.

If the passenger seats were made permanent the vehicle might be described as a waggonette.

Currently the term is sometimes used for an estate car (see also shooting-brake) or station wagon. In France, the term break is synonymous with a station wagon, having been called a break de chasse, literally translated: hunting break.
UNQUOTE
Title: Re: Solved TGF-149: Rosengart Vivor LR4PL, 1950
Post by: Bill Murray on July 18, 2013, 04:18:21 PM
Well, Norman, when it was decided to let Colonials join this merry band, you had to know some of us would butcher the true "English Language". ;D

Thank goodness I spent two years in Canada where although they have bastardized the language to an extent, I did learn the proper British spelling for many words.

In any case, this was an interesting one, a barely three pager, and demonstrated the excellent international cooperation on this Forum.  Always fun.

Bill

Title: Re: Solved TGF-149: Rosengart Vivor LR4PL, 1950
Post by: Wendax on February 12, 2019, 06:37:21 AM
A sur-Vivor:  ;D
Title: Re: Solved TGF-149: Rosengart Vivor LR4PL, 1950
Post by: Wendax on September 26, 2023, 07:35:43 AM
Another sur-Vivor: