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Puzzles, Games and Name That Car => Solved AutoPuzzles => 2014 => Topic started by: grobmotorix on July 09, 2014, 12:28:41 PM

Title: Harkness 120HP racing car by Harry Harkness for the 1904 Gordon Bennett Cup
Post by: grobmotorix on July 09, 2014, 12:28:41 PM
Who knows this racecar?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on July 10, 2014, 12:31:14 PM
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Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: mekubb on July 17, 2014, 05:08:03 PM
Italian ?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on July 17, 2014, 05:22:13 PM
Not from Italy.
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: mekubb on July 17, 2014, 05:28:33 PM
French ?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on July 17, 2014, 06:02:56 PM
Not from France.
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: D-type on July 17, 2014, 06:24:09 PM
British, ie Brooklands ?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on July 18, 2014, 12:16:23 PM
Yes and yes!

Sorry, I mixed something up here... :bag:
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 09, 2014, 12:40:57 PM
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Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: nicanary on August 20, 2014, 05:56:34 AM
That building behind the car looks very, very French to me. The shutters and the concierge's entrance door make me think that's a Parisian apartment block.

Is it a British marque owned and driven by a Frenchman ?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 20, 2014, 12:39:34 PM
I´m quite sure it not even european.
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: mekubb on August 20, 2014, 03:50:51 PM
From down under ?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 20, 2014, 04:01:16 PM
No.
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: 4popoid on August 20, 2014, 04:54:04 PM
Perhaps one of Louis Zborowski's "Chitty" cars?  Maybe a re-bodied Chitty 2, after it was sold to an individual in the USA.  I believe it is (was?) in a museum in the USA.
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: nicanary on August 20, 2014, 06:55:56 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused. In reply #7 you said it was British and a Brooklands car. Now you say it is not European.

Can we have this clarified?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 21, 2014, 01:40:54 PM
Sorry - my mistake.

To help: it is american.
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: 4popoid on August 21, 2014, 07:00:17 PM
Locomobile?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: nicanary on August 21, 2014, 07:02:09 PM
The body style is unusual for an American track car of that period. The bonnet louvres and top vents remind me of the Vanderbilt Cup Simplex - is this a rebodied car of that type?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 22, 2014, 01:33:44 AM
QuoteThe body style is unusual for an American track car of that period.

That´s why I´ve mixed it up.

I do not have any technical details, sorry.
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: 4popoid on August 22, 2014, 02:48:18 AM
Quote from: 4popoid on August 21, 2014, 07:00:17 PM
Locomobile?
I take it that it is not a Locomobile, so how about a Lozier?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: Otto Puzzell on August 22, 2014, 05:33:30 AM
The wheels resemble those on a Simplex - but the radiator looks to be too far forward. Perhaps a Simplex fitted with another engine?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: nicanary on August 22, 2014, 05:50:08 AM
Quote from: Otto Puzzell on August 22, 2014, 05:33:30 AM
The wheels resemble those on a Simplex - but the radiator looks to be too far forward. Perhaps a Simplex fitted with another engine?

I've just realised that the OP hasn't answered my post #17 - I also thought it might be a Simplex.
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: Otto Puzzell on August 22, 2014, 05:58:17 AM
Oops - I didn't see that. I'm pretty sure you're right. The cooling doors on top of the hood / bonnet are common on Simplex cars of the time.
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 22, 2014, 11:51:41 AM
Locomobile
Simplex


The photo you showed point into the right direction. Mine was made in 1903 before the qualification for a race.

The driver also gave his name to the car.

And it is not a too well known one... ;)
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: Allan L on August 22, 2014, 01:04:01 PM
Well, despite the photo of the 1903 GB racer I found looking nothing like this, I'll have to ask if it is Alexander Winton in a Winton before the Long Island trials.
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 22, 2014, 01:50:19 PM
Good idea, but not Winton...

Locomobile
Simplex
Winton


To help a bit: the first letter is from the first half of the alphabet.
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: 4popoid on August 22, 2014, 02:16:30 PM
Has Lozier also been eliminated?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: ropat53 on August 22, 2014, 03:29:35 PM
Maxwell?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 22, 2014, 04:45:29 PM
Locomobile
Lozier
Maxwell
Simplex
Winton
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: 4popoid on August 22, 2014, 05:51:06 PM
You said: "The driver also gave his name to the car."  Was the driver's name: Herbert Lytle?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 22, 2014, 06:09:28 PM
QuoteYou said: "The driver also gave his name to the car."
Yes.
QuoteWas the driver's name: Herbert Lytle?
No.

Locomobile
Lozier
Lytle
Maxwell
Simplex
Winton
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: 4popoid on August 22, 2014, 11:57:03 PM
Was the driver's name: Guy Vaughn?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 23, 2014, 04:19:22 AM
Locomobile
Lozier
Lytle
Maxwell
Simplex
Vaughn
Winton
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: nicanary on August 23, 2014, 04:40:17 AM
A well-known name, so it's probably not correct - Knox ?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: Otto Puzzell on August 23, 2014, 04:42:49 AM
Was the builder or driver Herbert Buffum?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 23, 2014, 05:02:20 AM
Buffum
Knox
Locomobile
Lozier
Lytle
Maxwell
Simplex
Vaughn
Winton


And no - it is not a well known name.
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: 4popoid on August 23, 2014, 10:37:57 PM
Was the driver's name: Montague Roberts?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 24, 2014, 02:57:09 AM
Buffum
Knox
Locomobile
Lozier
Lytle
Maxwell
Roberts
Simplex
Vaughn
Winton
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 24, 2014, 03:06:55 AM
You need some help:

QuoteThat building behind the car looks very, very French to me. The shutters and the concierge's entrance door make me think that's a Parisian apartment block.

I ignored this post intentionally, because I thought it would help too much.

Yes, the photo was taken in France in 1903.

The car and driver are American.

The driver was born in Ohio.

He was a well known aviator, too...

Now I think there´s a chance to solve this monster finally  ;)
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: Otto Puzzell on August 24, 2014, 03:27:03 AM
Eddie Rickenbacker?

Nope - he would have been 13 in 1903 :(
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: Otto Puzzell on August 24, 2014, 03:50:54 AM
Percy Owen?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: mekubb on August 24, 2014, 04:11:45 AM
Could it be Orville Wright ? He was born in Ohio....
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 24, 2014, 05:16:29 AM
Buffum
Knox
Locomobile
Lozier
Lytle
Maxwell
Owen
Rickenbacker
Roberts
Simplex
Vaughn
Winton
Wright


Keep digging! He took part in some important and known races and events...
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: 4popoid on August 24, 2014, 08:58:33 AM
Harris Hanshue?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 24, 2014, 09:32:05 AM
Buffum
Hanshue
Knox
Locomobile
Lozier
Lytle
Maxwell
Owen
Rickenbacker
Roberts
Simplex
Vaughn
Winton
Wright
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: Otto Puzzell on August 24, 2014, 10:17:18 AM
Glenn Curtis was a well-known motorcycle racer - could it be him?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 24, 2014, 10:30:29 AM
Buffum
Curtis
Hanshue
Knox
Locomobile
Lozier
Lytle
Maxwell
Owen
Rickenbacker
Roberts
Simplex
Vaughn
Winton
Wright
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: nicanary on August 24, 2014, 10:52:19 AM
Beachey ?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 24, 2014, 11:03:18 AM
Beachey
Buffum
Curtis
Hanshue
Knox
Locomobile
Lozier
Lytle
Maxwell
Owen
Rickenbacker
Roberts
Simplex
Vaughn
Winton
Wright
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: ropat53 on August 24, 2014, 11:48:52 AM
William K. Vanderbilt Jr.?
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 24, 2014, 12:21:15 PM
Not Vanderbilt, but comparable - his family belongs to big money...

Beachey
Buffum
Curtis
Hanshue
Knox
Locomobile
Lozier
Lytle
Maxwell
Owen
Rickenbacker
Roberts
Simplex
Vanderbilt
Vaughn
Winton
Wright
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: mekubb on August 24, 2014, 12:42:09 PM
Must be Harry Harkness then
Title: Re: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03)
Post by: grobmotorix on August 24, 2014, 12:45:45 PM
 :applause:

Yes!

LOCKED for you!

Now I need a year a what this car was supposed for.
Title: Re: LOCKED for mekubb: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03) Harry Harkness ...
Post by: mekubb on August 24, 2014, 02:55:59 PM
Could it be the 1903 Paris-Madrid race ?
Title: Re: LOCKED for mekubb: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03) Harry Harkness ...
Post by: grobmotorix on August 24, 2014, 03:05:53 PM
No.

The photo was shot in 1903, but  for a 1904 race. Which one?
Title: Re: LOCKED for mekubb: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03) Harry Harkness ...
Post by: mekubb on August 24, 2014, 04:01:09 PM
The 1904 Gordon Bennett Cup ?
Title: Re: LOCKED for mekubb: grob race car special 2014.07.09 (03) Harry Harkness ...
Post by: grobmotorix on August 24, 2014, 04:35:08 PM
Yes, it´s the 120HP Harkness racing car, driven by Harry Harkness at Paris during the 1903 eliminiation trials for the 1904 Gordon Bennett Cup!
Title: Re: Harkness 120HP racing car by Harry Harkness for the 1904 Gordon Bennett Cup
Post by: Otto Puzzell on August 25, 2014, 04:04:18 AM
Nice solve!

It seems Harkness intended to participate in the 1903 Bennett Cup race, but the car was not completed in time. This snippet is from The Motor Car Journal ("every Friday, one penny") from November of 1903. I don't believe Harkness competed in the 1904 race. The second pic is a list of entrants (including an unnamed Austrian.)

Title: Re: Harkness 120HP racing car by Harry Harkness for the 1904 Gordon Bennett Cup
Post by: Allan L on August 25, 2014, 04:51:25 AM
I found Harkness in the list of potential competitors for the 1903 GB and would have guessed him but
(a) could find no photo of the car, and
(b) did not recognise the name from aviation
(c) Harkness is a local rose-grower

Some of those internet race summaries are unreliable, but then so are books. For what it's worth I can say that the Montagu/Sedgwick book of the GB races shows Werner from Austria in a Mercedes in 11th place at 7:32:13.2 ahead of Jarrott and shows Warden as DNF after 2 laps.
Title: Re: Harkness 120HP racing car by Harry Harkness for the 1904 Gordon Bennett Cup
Post by: Otto Puzzell on August 25, 2014, 08:47:32 AM
The Internet site that included the list of finishers attributed the list to "(Beaulieu, p206)".
Title: Re: Harkness 120HP racing car by Harry Harkness for the 1904 Gordon Bennett Cup
Post by: grobmotorix on August 25, 2014, 12:03:58 PM
Thank you for your contributions!

I think he only participated in the 1903 elimination trials for the 1904 race and did not qualify.

Nevertheless I´m happy that I´ve found this high-resolution photo of this interesting car.
Title: Re: Harkness 120HP racing car by Harry Harkness for the 1904 Gordon Bennett Cup
Post by: Fёdor on October 18, 2022, 01:35:02 PM
Another photo
Title: Re: Harkness 120HP racing car by Harry Harkness for the 1904 Gordon Bennett Cup
Post by: grobmotorix on October 20, 2022, 04:52:58 PM
 :applause: