Precise make and model name please to earn a point, and this being Autopuzzles, it's not as obvious as it first looks!
1963 Ford Taunus 12M
It's a Ford for sure, but this one is not a Taunus 12M. So, what's its model name? Locked to you until your next reply.
Its model name is the Ford Taunus P4
Sorry, but this one isn't called Taunus.
Ford Cardinal.
I like your thinking, as this car was part of Ford's Cardinal programme, but this is not called Cardinal.
Ford 12 M
Sorry, not 12 M.
Ford P4
Sorry, but not P4.
Ford P4 Taunus Limousine! I've been through all the Ford sites and cannot find any indication that this car was produced anywhere else but in Germany!
Welcome to the fun and frustrating world of AutoPuzzles, as things are not always quite what they seem here! That's the fun part, searching for one thing and discovering something entirely different. The Ford in this photo was part-built in Germany, but not 100%. :)
Up a level...
Ford Falcon?
Mustang 1??
Ford Cardinal ?
Was this one branded as a Mercury?
Interesting how the glasshouse, front grille and turn signals are almost the same as the Consul Cortina Mk.1
It will be interesting to see the actual solution to this one. The vehicle pictured is, without a doubt, the car that began life as the American Ford Cardinal which was given as a fully-finished design to Ford of Germany when Dearborn decided not to make the car in the United States. It was produced there as the Taunus 12M, or P4. That much, we all know and can agree on. However, the particular version of the car pictured is slightly different and proving very difficult to positively and unequivocally identify.
What a great and interesting puzzle, Djetset, and well done. I can see what's different, but damned if I know what it signifies. Time to keep looking!
As "cardinal" was an internal company name Ford USA had for the project, I think Djetset is looking for the name Ford intended to sell the car as.
One of the Ford USA Cardinal styling proposals was very similar to the British Ford Corsair.
Wonder If Corsair is the name he is looking for?
That's certainly possible . . . most of the American magazines of that period that show "artists renderings" of the proposed "New Ford Small Car" do show drawings that look more like the British Ford Consul Corsair . . . but they're still labeled as "Cardinals".
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/fyreline/KGrHqNk8E647N-zoBO4g23G0Rg60_57_zpsf42fdc99.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/fyreline/media/KGrHqNk8E647N-zoBO4g23G0Rg60_57_zpsf42fdc99.jpg.html)
About the only thing the aborted USA Ford Cardiinal program left behind was its V-4 engine for the original Ford Mustang I sports car. Lee Iacocca didn't feel the proposed USA Cardinal could sell in enough volume to sustain it.
That Ford V4 was a horrible engine, I used to drive a Transit delivery van with one, I can still remember the lack of power and the nasty noise's it made.
V6 (Essex)version wasn't bad though, had a few V6 Capri's and a Granada S with that powertrain.
Yes, I've heard more than a few horror stories about that Ford V-4. Fortunately we were spared that particular disaster in the US . . . Not that we didn't have plenty of our own!
I've been considering your line of thinking, that the puzzle car represents the aborted American car (whatever it's intended name), which I tend to think it does. That emblem on the front of the hood is the emblem used by Ford USA during the early 60s. Looking back through the posts, most names that make any sense have already been mentioned. If it's one of those "XP-999" monikers that automakers love to use, I haven't found it yet.
And Djetset must be sitting back, laughing at us. As he should. ;D
when you open the bonnet of a Ford Taunus P4 you can see how engineers had to puzzle to fit engine and prowertrain in the compartment to drive the front wheels. the short V4 had to be moved further upfront to make room for the driving axles. so the radiator had to be removed and was substituted by an overtly clever but overtly awkward cooling fan system based on the heater...
Yes, a lot of American publications called the V-4 "fan less", but that's not strictly true.
Would love to hear from Djetset if we're on the right track with this puzzle, or are we barking up the wrong tree?
Just trying to keep this puzzle car on the top of the stack so it doesn't get lost . . . again, are we on the right track that this is, in fact, a yet-unidentified specific version of the car we think it is (The Ford Cardinal/Taunus 12M/P4)?
Or do we have the wrong car entirely?
I wonder ......
Could this one be badged as a Mazda? Or is this before the Mazda connection?
This all took place in the late 1950s - very early 1960s timeframe, which I believe predates any Ford/Mazda connection. I've been scouring the web and my own library for any additional insight into the Ford Cardinal project, and I haven't found a name for this car that hasn't been mentioned yet.
But, as I always say, the search is at least half of the fun - and if it was easy, it wouldn't be on Autopuzzles!
Gosh, as mentioned in the Slow Answers section, I was away from my PC for most of the recent Festive season, so I'm only just catching-up now on my puzzles. Fyreline is on the right lines with this being a proposal for the North American markets (big clue), but none of the names given so far apply to this Ford pictured.
Oh, and by the way, the USA didn't quite escape the German-built Ford V4 engine, as this powered a number of the Saab 96s, 95 Wagons and 97 Sonnetts sold in the United States, where they proved to be quite reliable (once the Swedes had sorted out some of the engine's problems, just as they did with the Ricardo/Triumph motor in the Saab 99 too) ;)
and the V4 was also used in the mid-engined Matra M530 because of its short length...
Ford Condor ?
Hmmmm. The statement that the puzzle car "Was a proposal for North American markets" points either at Canada or Mexico. Canada ended up getting the US Ford Falcon, rebadged as the "Frontenac", so I tend to think that the same reasoning that caused Ford USA to favor the new Falcon over the P4 Taunus would preclude their bringing it to Canada - hence the Frontenac. I suppose it's possible that Ford originally considered importing the P4 Taunus to Canada and calling IT the Frontenac . . . But I haven't found any reference to that yet. So how about Ford of Mexico? Haven't found anything yet - and still haven't given up completely on Canada, either - and so the search continues.
I did find one reference to this design as the NPX-C5, but that was while it was still under initial development in Germany, so I don't think that's it.
As far as I know the Frontenac was only sold as a Mercury here in Canada, but they were assembled in a Ford Plant in Oakville Ontario.
That's correct (as far as I know), the US Ford Falcon-based Frontenac was a one-year-only offering through Canadian Mercury dealers. Although a 1961 Falcon-based Frontenac prototype was built, in the end Ford Motor Company decided to switch to the same Comet sold by American Mercury dealers in 1961.
Still lookin' for that Canadian or Mexican Ford Cardinal!
Gosh, what I thought was quite a straight forward puzzle has generated rather more debate and speculation than I ever imagined!
To help ease your research (fyreline and others) this car was planned for the US market (not sure about Canada though) but had no Mexican connection. Happy hunting! ;)
Oh, and on the matter of the grotty Cologne Ford V4 used in the Saab and Matra (I've owned both a Saab 96 V4 and Matra M530 LX, so can personally vouch for this being a really rough old engine) both Saab and Matra originally planned to use Lancia's lovely little V4 from the Fulvia, but the Italians wouldn't shift on price (which was way too high) so the Ford lump was chosen instead. What a shame, as the Fulvia engine would have transformed the way the Saabs and Matras drove (although it wouldn't have improved the M530's 'distinctive/ugly' styling!).
as a kid I thought the M530 was awkward eeeeeh but french yes. seen from this century I thnk its sleek tapered silhouette is very daring still and yes: nouveau. not so awful after all. intricate yes.
Ford Futura?
Sorry, but it's not a Futura. Perhaps Ford Frustration would be a better name! :lmao:
Was the intended name used on a later Ford car?
Quote[To help ease your research (fyreline and others) this car was planned for the US market (not sure about Canada though) but had no Mexican connection.
That's certainly interesting. It's well-documented that the puzzle car was originally developed for the US market under the name "Cardinal", when the plug was pulled at the 11th hour and the design sent to Germany. So Ford intended to sell the car as something else? That's a truly great puzzle, and something not mentioned anywhere I have seen. I look forward to seeing the answer, but meanwhile I'll keep looking.
And I certainly agree . . . What a wonderful change the Lancia-sourced V-4 would have wrought, particularly in the Saab. Too bad.
I think the Pros will resolve this one quite quickly...
Quote from: WayneB on January 08, 2014, 07:24:55 PM
Was the intended name used on a later Ford car?
Yes or No?
Oophs, sorry Wayne, I missed your question. The answer is no, the name was not used on any other Ford model, AFAIK.
Ford Harrier? (I know the name was used on a Ford GB Escort model in the 80's)
Not Harrier.
Was this branded as something other than Ford, ie did it's name not include Ford?
The picture shows how the Cardinal would have looked in U.S. trim. It would have been marketed as the Redwing V-4.
Rather quickly as I am leaving the house for a few hours.
Turkish Anadol-Ford?
Edit: Parent company was Otosan.
Bill
Quote from: Wendax on January 11, 2014, 02:12:42 PM
The picture shows how the Cardinal would have looked in U.S. trim. It would have been marketed as the Redwing V-4.
Should have been "Red Hat" surely?!
I'll get my coat . . .
While I've seen the V-4 motor itself referred to as the Redwing, I only found one reference to the car itself potentially being sold in the USA under that name . . . And it was just an opinion, not anything from Ford. Nothing else yet.
Despite your admirable perseverance Fyreline, the point goes to Wendax for the correct answer of the Ford Redwing V4, as planned (but cancelled at the last moment) for the American market.
Well done Wendax! I would like to know, just for future reference, what the source was for this name? Even the curators at the Henry Ford Museum could not find the car so listed in the Ford Motor Company corporate archives, so it was well-hidden indeed. Now THAT's a great puzzle!
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