AutoPuzzles - The Internet's Museum of Rare Cars!
Puzzles, Games and Name That Car => Solved AutoPuzzles => 2015 => Topic started by: Djetset on April 05, 2015, 06:09:34 AM
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I think this one is very tough and likely to ultimately reside in the Black Hole for some time, so straight into the Pros section initially, although everyone is naturally very welcome to try and answer the following:
So, who designed this car, who was it designed for, what was its planned model name, and what mechanical base was it intended to use? Oh, and it was a serious design proposal! Have fun...
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Proposal for a Fiat sportscar made by an Italian designer ?
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Proposal for a Fiat sportscar made by an Italian designer ?
Sorry, but no to each question you've asked.
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Design proposal for Matra Bagheera ?
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Design proposal for Matra Bagheera ?
I like your thinking, but no Matra connection here I'm afraid.
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Looks very much like the Owen Sedanca and the Savannah too.
Anything to do with Chris Humberstone?
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Looks very much like the Owen Sedanca and the Savannah too.
Anything to do with Chris Humberstone?
Ah ha, I thought you might spot the Chris Humberstone style, as this is one his designs, although not for the Sedanca nor the Savanah. So, now locked to you until your next reply to tell me who he designed this one for, plus its name, base, etc. Good luck ;)
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Thanks but information is somewhat sparse out there..
If it's not his Imp-engined 408 then is it Alfasud-based?
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Thanks but information is somewhat sparse out there..
If it's not his Imp-engined 408 then is it Alfasud-based?
Sorry, but it's neither Imp nor Alfasud based.
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Designed for a British manufacturer?
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Designed for a British manufacturer?
Designed for a British company, but not really a manufacturer.
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Small company like AC or a kit-car manufacturer?
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Is this puzzle still locked ?
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Looks very much like the Owen Sedanca and the Savannah too.
Anything to do with Chris Humberstone?
As an aside the Owen Sedanca will be featured on Quentin Willson's Channel 5 Classic Cars show on Thursday 16th April.
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Small company like AC or a kit-car manufacturer?
Forget the above question!
I think it might be Humberstone's Quartette, described as a full 4-seater with a mid-mounted motor within very compact dimensions, which he did for IBCAM who displayed a model of it on their stand at the Earl's Court Motor Show in 1970. I haven't been able to find a picture of the Quartette, but the position of the front seats in the drawing suggests that there are another 2 seats and possibly an engine behind it.
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aside again: Giugiaro's sketches fot the Alfetta GT from 1967.
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Thanks for the interesting Alfa drawings PJ; the likeness of the Humberstone design is uncanny!
Carnut, please forgive the slow reply, but I've been overseas for the past week and struggling to get any decent WiFi.
This design was not planned for a kit car company, nor a 'conventional' manufacturer, although you have hit on something with your (informed or wild guess) mention of AC. This car was not planned for AC, but... It is not Humberstone's Quartette, but conceptually very close in thinking to that stillborn project. I hope this helps.
I will lock this again for you now Carnut to finish the puzzle off with the planned mechanical base, and the car's model name.
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Thanks Djetset.
So is it something to do with the Bohanna-Stables Diablo that morphed into the AC 3000ME?
That was based on Austin Maxi mechanicals if my memory serves me well!
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Thanks Djetset.
So is it something to do with the Bohanna-Stables Diablo that morphed into the AC 3000ME?
That was based on Austin Maxi mechanicals if my memory serves me well!
No Bohanna-Stables connection here I'm afraid, but you are right in that their Diablo prototype did (eventually) evolve into the AC 3000 ME. As an extra clue, this Humberstone machine was also planned to be mid-engined, like the 3000 ME. So, any more ideas...
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Since I can find absolute zilch out about this car I'm reaching the conclusion the answer is not on the Internet?
Was it originally done for Bob Jankel?
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I think this is the world debut of this car, as I took a photo of the original drawing which has never been seen in public before, until now, so nothing on-line at all!
Oh, andf sorry, but it's not for Mr Jankel.
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I think this is the world debut of this car, as I took a photo of the original drawing which has never been seen in public before, until now, so nothing on-line at all!
Oh, andf sorry, but it's not for Mr Jankel.
No problem, I've only wasted about 100 hours searching the web for it or mention of it!!
Was it for someone who had a previous connection with Chris Humberstone then, like Rapport, or perhaps for Glenfrome?
Did you see the C4 feature about Humberstone's Owen Sedanca last night? Plenty of the usual tosh of course, but it was nice to see it featured, even if they didn't even open the bonnet... They kept saying it was "the only one" even after admitting two more were made after this one! Ah, but this was the pre-production prototype they said! No, it was originally a one-off then two more were made.
They were busy saying how the Sedanca influenced other cars as well, for instance they pointed out the rear side window which was very similar in shape to the Lamborghini Espada and clearly influenced the Espada's design in that and other areas (they said). Not quite sure how they work that one out when the Espada dates from 1967/8 whilst the Sedanca didn't appear until 1973.. God save us from the "Experts" on TV...!
The car featured actually belonged to a friend of mine between 1996 and 2002. It was originally white when shown at the Earl's Court Motor Show in 1973 but was re-sprayed in gold when shown again in 1976; it's still gold. My friend sold it because it needed a lot of money spent on it. Most people assumed it was an Italian exotic and quickly lost interest in it when he explained it was just a rebodied XJ6...
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Not sure how it would be even possible to solve this particular puzzle then If only the drawings creator (Chris Humberstone who is dead)and the puzzle's poster know of its existence.
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I think this is the world debut of this car, as I took a photo of the original drawing which has never been seen in public before, until now, so nothing on-line at all!
Oh, andf sorry, but it's not for Mr Jankel.
No problem, I've only wasted about 100 hours searching the web for it or mention of it!!
Was it for someone who had a previous connection with Chris Humberstone then, like Rapport, or perhaps for Glenfrome?
Did you see the C4 feature about Humberstone's Owen Sedanca last night? Plenty of the usual tosh of course, but it was nice to see it featured, even if they didn't even open the bonnet... They kept saying it was "the only one" even after admitting two more were made after this one! Ah, but this was the pre-production prototype they said! No, it was originally a one-off then two more were made.
They were busy saying how the Sedanca influenced other cars as well, for instance they pointed out the rear side window which was very similar in shape to the Lamborghini Espada and clearly influenced the Espada's design in that and other areas (they said). Not quite sure how they work that one out when the Espada dates from 1967/8 whilst the Sedanca didn't appear until 1973.. God save us from the "Experts" on TV...!
The car featured actually belonged to a friend of mine between 1996 and 2002. It was originally white when shown at the Earl's Court Motor Show in 1973 but was re-sprayed in gold when shown again in 1976; it's still gold. My friend sold it because it needed a lot of money spent on it. Most people assumed it was an Italian exotic and quickly lost interest in it when he explained it was just a rebodied XJ6...
Bertone's Pirana design was modified to become the Espada, so technically I guess the Sedanca's roots come from that design.
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Was it for someone who had a previous connection with Chris Humberstone then, like Rapport, or perhaps for Glenfrome?
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I've been overseas for a couple of weeks, so sadly I missed the TV piece on the Sedanca. I guessed it wouldn't be great, but I will make an effort to catch-up with it shortly on the I-player.
This car was planned for a known Chris Humberstone connection, but not Rapport or Glenfrome.
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Most of the known Humberstone connections I know of have already been discounted (Owen, Triplex, 408, Rapport, Panther) so that doesn't leave many..
Harold Radford perhaps, or Scorpion?
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No, the first one on your list is right (H.R.Owen). It's just that you hadn't mention them in the right context until now.
I can feel points gathering here soon, as you got the designer, and who it was for, (plus you've touched on the make of its intended base, possibly by accident, but...) so the main outstanding question that's left now is its name?!
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No, the first one on your list is right (H.R.Owen). It's just that you hadn't mention them in the right context until now.
I can feel points gathering here soon, as you got the designer, and who it was for, (plus you've touched on the make of its intended base, possibly by accident, but...) so the main outstanding question that's left now is its name?!
Three-quarters of the way there then..
I very nearly posted instead of my above post: "It does look remarkably like the Sedanca so perhaps a smaller car for H.R. Owen?" but I changed my mind!
If only Chris and you were aware of this design and he is sadly no longer with us then that leaves only you; any stab at the name can only be a complete shot in the dark so any clues going?! Maybe it's also a resurrected Gurney Nutting name like Owen Sedanca was?
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Not planned as an Owen Sedanca, but as a clue, the proposed model name was used by at least two other car companies.
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Not planned as an Owen Sedanca, but as a clue, the proposed model name was used by at least two other car companies.
Thanks! There are any number of those though...
Two other British car companies? Something like Rapier? Or two other car companies worldwide?
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Not planned as an Owen Sedanca, but as a clue, the proposed model name was used by at least two other car companies.
Thanks! There are any number of those though...
Two other British car companies? Something like Rapier? Or two other car companies worldwide?
One of the cars with the same model name is British, and was launched in the same year as this Humberstone proposal was drawn.
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OK. I wonder when this proposal was drawn.. That would really narrow it down, but let's start with Avenger?
The Hillman Avenger was launched in 1969, and there was a Dodge Avenger too in the USA.
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OK. I wonder when this proposal was drawn.. That would really narrow it down, but let's start with Avenger?
The Hillman Avenger was launched in 1969, and there was a Dodge Avenger too in the USA.
A tad later than 1969, and higher up the alphabet!
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Crusader? The Clan Crusader appeared in 1971..
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Crusader? The Clan Crusader appeared in 1971..
1971 is the year, but the name is higher up the alphabet.
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Is this puzzle still locked for Carnut ?
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Is this puzzle still locked for Carnut ?
No, I guess everyone can have a try at naming this car now, although I will be awarding a point shortly to Carnitas for his fine detective work so far.
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My guess is "Marina"
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My guess is "Marina"
Not Marina.
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Firenza ?
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Thanks!
Is this British car launched in 1971 from a mainstream manufacturer or kit/obscure car maker?
If the latter then Nova maybe?
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Thanks!
Is this British car launched in 1971 from a mainstream manufacturer or kit/obscure car maker?
If the latter then Nova maybe?
No, from a smaller niche car maker, but not Nova (or Firenza).
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I'm really struggling here.
There were few enough cars launched in the UK in 1971 by any manufacturers, mainstream or otherwise.
So leaving aside the major makers there was the Imp-engined Voodoo, the TX Tripper, Trident Tycoon and Lotus Europa Twin-Cam (which really isn't a 1971 launch except with that twin-cam engine); I thought about the Marcos Mantis but that appeared in 1970, though it should have been strangled at birth...
So is that niche manufacturer a really obscure maker of kit cars?
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The niche company made specialist cars, as well as kits.
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What about Invader then?
That name has been used by various makers and Gilbern (who made both fully built niche cars and kit cars) launched their Invader MkII in 1971..
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What about Invader then?
That name has been used by various makers and Gilbern (who made both fully built niche cars and kit cars) launched their Invader MkII in 1971..
Sorry, but it's not Invader; more obscure.
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Can find very little indeed that fits all the criteria, i.e. the same name as a British car launched in 1971 by a manufacturer of both niche and kit cars and which was used by at least 2 other manufacturers.
How about Futura? That fits!
Or since I'm going to be away quite a bit over the next two and a half weeks I'll take the liberty of having another guess or two: Moonraker? Ranger?
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Sorry, but none of the above. The model name is shared with a British car, plus at least ONE other model from an international car maker.
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Scorpion? Silhouette? Gazelle?
I've gone through all my books on obscure British cars and named every one of the ones in there that was launched in 1971 and had a name used by another company (one British and one not), without success.
So it's either not in the Filby/Rees books (which makes it more than obscure and I've certainly never heard of it) or it appeared in a slightly different year from 1971? Is that possible?
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Metro ?
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Sorry, but still none of the above. The model name is obscure, but not that obscure, and as a clue is it is four-legged based ;)
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Pantera ?
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Pantera ?
No, more dog than cat-related (but still obscure!).
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Greyhound ?
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or Windhound?
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Sorry, but none of the above.
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Bulldog ?
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Bulldog ?
No, more obscure.
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Terrier?
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Terrier?
No, still more obscure.
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Harrier ?
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Harrier ?
No.
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Whippet ?
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Whippet ?
No.
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Saluki?
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Boxer ?
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Griffon?
Surely not Fox...?
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Coyote?
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PJ has the correct name with the Saluki (shared with the 1971 Siva Saluki, plus the international export version of the Dodge Ram Charger/Plymouth Trail Duster, known as the Chrysler Saluki in some overseas markets - I've never seen the latter myself, but I do have a brochure on this version from the Middle East).
So, a point to PJ for the name, plus a point to Carnut for identifying this as a Chris Humberstone project.
I will keep this puzzle open however to that the remaining details can be guessed at (e.g. intended client, precise powertrain, etc.). Have fun!
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Thanks.
I'd dismissed Saluki since according to Chris Rees the Siva Saluki appeared in 1973...
Was the design originally commissioned by an established car maker?
Was it intended to have a 4-cylinder engine?
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You are very welcome Carnut. The Siva Saluki appeared earlier than 1973, as it was mentioned in Motor magazine in 1971, and an advert appearing for it it in a Car 'Fun Car' special supplement in 1972.
This car was 'proposed' by Humberstone, rather than commissioned by anyone, but it was not for an 'established; car maker. It was intended to have more than 4-cylinders.
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Ford Essex V6?
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Ford Essex V6?
Sorry, not that one.
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Rover eight?
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Rover eight?
Not that one, but getting closer ;)
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Ford Essex V6?
Sorry, not that one.
But another 6-cylinder?
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Ford Essex V6?
Sorry, not that one.
But another 6-cylinder?
No, not a 6-cylinder.
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American V8?
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Did Humberstone produce the design for one of the racing teams with which he was involved?
I know his involvement came later but perhaps he produced it for someone like Gordon Spice, who maybe had an idea he wanted to get into road cars?
At the time of this Humberstone proposal wasn't Gordon Spice, whilst working for Downton Engineering, involved (or had been involved) with Deep Sanderson? Maybe they or Downton had the idea they could produce a saleable 4-seater?
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There is no connection with a racing team, but the engine is American-based.
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Chevrolet engine ?
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There is no connection with a racing team, but the engine is American-based.
American-based but not actually American-made?
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This car was 'proposed' by Humberstone, rather than commissioned by anyone, but it was not for an 'established; car maker. It was intended to have more than 4-cylinders.
So he did the design on spec with the hope that it would be taken up by someone specific but who was not an 'established' car maker. Were they a wannabe car maker involved in some other aspect of transport?
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Proposal for Jean Tastevin of Monica fame ?
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Gosh, so many questions!
The engine was American made, but not by Chevrolet.
No Monica connection at all, but Humberstone did have a link to the company he proposed this to (hint!)
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Did he do a Mini nose-job for them?!
If not maybe Williams & Pritchard?
Incidentally according to Steve Hole in his A-Z of Kit Cars, although the Siva S160 from which the Saluki was developed was shown at the Racing Car Show in 1971 the Saluki itself was launched at the Racing Car Show in 1973.. Is he wrong as well as Chris Rees?!
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Ford engine?
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Yes to a Ford-based engine, but no to Williams & Pritchard.
I have the Siva down as a 1971 reveal, as per the sources I mentioned earlier. Both Chris and I helped Steve Hole with his book, but for various reasons, it is not 100% accurate, so Steve is now woking on an updated and corrected version, which I am assisting him with.
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Harold Radford?
Or a racing-car builder maybe?
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Harold Radford?
Or a racing-car builder maybe?
Neither of these.
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Another coachbuilder, like Carbodies?
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Another coachbuilder? Carbodies?
Not really a coachbuilder.
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A car modifier, like Broadspeed?
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A car modifier, like Broadspeed?
Sorry but not really a modifier either
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Anything to do with glass? Like Triplex?
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Most of the known Humberstone connections I know of have already been discounted (Owen, Triplex, 408, Rapport, Panther) so that doesn't leave many..
Harold Radford perhaps, or Scorpion?
No, the first one on your list is right (H.R.Owen). It's just that you hadn't mention them in the right context until now.
I can feel points gathering here soon, as you got the designer, and who it was for, (plus you've touched on the make of its intended base, possibly by accident, but...) so the main outstanding question that's left now is its name?!
Not quite sure what we're still looking for as we've got the designer, who it was designed for, what it was called, what make of engine was intended to be fitted (and it must have been a V8 since you said it was neither 4 nor 6-cylinders!) and that it was hoped or intended to become an AC!
So, what are we still looking for? Just which Ford engine? 302 cu in V8?
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That's a fare point Carnut, and in truth I'd forgotten that H R Owen had already been mentioned, as this puzzle has caused so much interest and debate.
So, I'll close it off now, and add the final bit of information, which is the base car, which was planned to be the AC 428 model, using the 7-litre Ford V8 engine, mid-mounted.
The car was planned as a 2+2 with gullwing doors, and was proposed to the senior board of H.R.Owen as an Owen-branded model when Chris Humberstone was working for them (briefly) as a car salesman during 1971. He also proposed some other models, which didn't make it to production either, although ultimately H.R Owen did offer the Jaguar-based Sedanca that Humberstone designed.
I have the original drawings for this Saluki, so I will post a scan of the overall design proposal shortly. I hope you enjoyed a 'world debut' puzzle for a car that has never been seen before, and than you all (especially Carnut) for your interesting guesses :)
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Thanks for a great puzzle Djetset - just my sort!
In truth I'd forgotten that the H.R. Owen connection had already been established too, hence I started repeating myself with questions about Harold Radford etc! It was only when PJ asked the Triplex question and I went looking back as I was sure I'd already asked that one then I came across my post which included Triplex and H.R. Owen then your reply confirming it was Owen!
I wonder where they were going to put a 7-litre V8, especially as it had two seats in the back already!? Perhaps tow it behind on a trailer?!
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As promised a while back, here are two further sketches/plans for Chris Humberstone's stillborn Saluki project. It's a shame it never made it into production!
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Found below in a Telegraph magazine from October 1969.
(https://www.rapport-forte.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Chris-Humberstone-Daily-Telegraph-Magazine-IBCAM-011069.jpg)
Does not look much like designs shown above to me. Early version?
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Fascinating.
Many thanks.
Do stick around Unsorted!