Hard times.
For one point, please respond and identify this truck.
up
up again
German marque?
Yes
Manufactured in DDR territory?
I believe this is a Ford V 3000S.
This one with the Einheitsfahrerhaus or standard drivers cabin used from about 1944 on.
Built mainly of wood as the supply of steel was very scarce by then.
Also known as "The Lost War Cab".
This one also has some sort of Holzgas wood fuel apparatus also a result of lack of supply of gasoline.
The photo seems to be taken postwar judging by the use of only one rear wheel.
Here is a photo of a factory new one.
Bill
Quote from: Bill Murray on September 28, 2015, 03:21:58 AM
I believe this is a Ford V 3000S.
This one with the Einheitsfahrerhaus or standard drivers cabin used from about 1944 on.
Built mainly of wood as the supply of steel was very scarce by then.
Also known as "The Lost War Cab".
This one also has some sort of Holzgas wood fuel apparatus also a result of lack of supply of gasoline.
The photo seems to be taken postwar judging by the use of only one rear wheel.
Here is a photo of a factory new one.
Bill
It is certainly based on a Ford V3000S. And it is a postwar conversion with some sort of apparatus, as you said. Follow that trail.
Locked for you for one guess.
I have no idea what more you are looking for.
All I can say from here is that the Imbert Gasifier was quite popular and the truck could have been used in postwar reconstruction jobs.
Bill
It is not a Holzgas conversion, alas not an Imbert.
Open for all again.
Is the vehicle in use in Germany?
Yes
Ford was involved in the use of Benzol as a motor fuel. Might this truck be modified to use Benzol?
No, and it is not a modification done by Ford.
You said: "It is not a Holzgas conversion", which I interpret to mean that it is not a device for making fuel from wood (wood gas). However, there was a process for making "distillate (fuel) from lignite coal", although I don't know if this was possible using a mobile device. If it was possible, might the converter shown be one for this process?
Not a mobile fuel distillery :)
Does the visible extra equipment have anything at all to do with an alternative fuel source for the vehicle?
Yes
Is the alternative fuel derived from some form (hard, soft, lignite, rtc.) of coal?
Yes, and it is not just an alternative fuel, also the engine is different to the one originally installed.
Sometimes, the language or terminology is important in these quizzes.
So, could it be that we are chasing the wrong interpretation of "alternative fuel"?
The rather poor quality photo does show several pieces of kit that were found on coal/wood powered motors but a lot of bits are also missing.
If I interpret "alternative fuel" as something other than gasoline/petrol, then I could say that the V3000 series was only supplied with gasoline engines.
Could it then be that this is a Ford V3000 that has been retrofitted with a diesel engine???
Bill
Not a diesel engine. As I stated in my last answer, the alternative fuel is coal. So what kind of engine might it be?
And who did this conversion?
Is the engine some sort of turbine?
Steam?
Not a turbine, but a steam engine.
Henschel-Doble conversion?
No
Following up on Bill's question: Was the steam engine manufacturer also a manufacturer of steam locomotives like O&K (Orenstein & Koppel)?
No
Was this truck mechanically driven by steam, or was it powered by steam generated electricity?
No electric propulsion
I realize you are supposed to only ask one question/give one answer at a time, however.....
The only other German manufacturer that I have found that was still around in 1945/6 that once did steam powered trucks was Hanomag. Assuming the manufacturer/maker was German would that be Hanomag?
No
I think Spence and I need some guidance.
The manufacturer of the propulsion system was not involved in steam railroad engines and was not one of the two companies I could find in germany that made steam lorries.
So, for a possible new direction, was the manufacturer of the propulsion system German??
While waiting for an answer to my last question, I found that Vomag made wood-gas engined lorries from 1940 and the round tube under the radiator looks exactly the same as in the puzzle Ford.
Could Vomag be involved in this vehicle?
Yes, the builder of the propulsion system was German and is not unknown at AP, but not in connection with steam engines. Vomag was not involved.
Was the manufacturer of this propulsion system known for the manufacture of non-steam powered commercial vehicles?
Yes, also.
Econom (Helmut Butenuth)?
Yes, although it was not called Econom, but Butenuth _________. Locked for you to find the (quite generic German) name.
Thanks for the lock Gerd. I hope I can solve the last part of the name, given my extremely limited command of the German language.
You say the missing part of the name is a generic German word. I'm guessing this would be something like "steam truck/lorry" or "steam powered truck/lorry". Playing around with the Google translator I came up with a German word(s) which seems to fit the generic requirement. So, is the name you are seeking: Butenuth Dampflastwagen, Butenuth Dampfkraftwagen, or Butenuth Dampflastkraftwagen (Butenuth Dampf-LKW)?
Very close, it is Butenuth Dampfxxxx. Still locked.
Perhaps I'm thinking too big. Maybe not steam truck, but only steam engine. How about: Butenuth Dampfmotor?
Yes, you were thinking too big, but it is more than just the engine. We are looking for a four-letter word.
Hmmm, more than just an "steam engine". Perhaps a "steam system". Butenuth Dampfnetz?
Even more, the whole vehicle! ;)
Aaargh, I've come full circle (back to steam truck). Unfortunately my translator only gives me words with more than nine letters (DampfXXXX) for steam truck, steam lorry, steam transporter, etc. I did find one four letter word for truck, wagon, dumper, but my translator doesn't want to mate it with dampf. I'll have to give it a try, as I don't know where else to look. Butenuth Dampflore?
Well, we Germans are quite creative in forming word compositions, and I doubt that your translator knows all of them. ;D But the solution is easier than you might think. At first, forget about the composed word. Just look for a four-letter word describing road vehicles in a more general sense than truck. Then you put Dampf in front of it and the point will be finally yours. Last round of torture, I promise. ;)
The only other four letter German word I can come up with, that describes "road vehicles in a more general sense", is: "auto". To me this doesn't really describe the puzzle vehicle, but then I am thinking in English, and there is the word Autobahn which applies to all types of vehicles. So I'll try: Dampfauto.
I think you could be right there. ;)
He is right, but I was just waiting for Gerd to verify it ;).
Yes, Butenuth Dampfauto is correct. Contrary to the English car, the German Auto can be applied to trucks too.
Thanks for the point Gerd, although I suggest that you award a point to Bill as well. He got the Ford V3000S identification, and without that information I doubt that I would have come up with Butenuth, as the key sentence I found was: "1937 taught Butenuth in Berlin a representative for Ford and upgraded during the war years Ford trucks over to steam operation."
I am not sure if anyone else is going to carry on with this one but I have hours of research in it so I will give it a go.
Hellmuth Butenuth was an engineer, eventually hired by Hanomag and involved in their development of a small car. He was active in some racing activities with the car and eventually was awarded the Hanomag franchise for Berlin/Brandenberg.
There is little information that I could find after that until 1945.
He then, was involved in the development of steam engines. Again, the information I found was very fragmented but I will try.
Apparently, 4 Ford vehicles were converted to steam, using a coke/coal fired primary engine, presumably a Ford. The steam engine was said to be a two stroke 4 cylinder boxer motor.
It seems an A. Simon was the primary developer of the concept and I have no further information yet on him. It also seems the vehicles were built 1945-1949 or 1946-1952, depending on the source, by the company Lenz and Butenuth. There is also a brief reference to the "Berlin Steam Engines Society" but I could find no information on that organization.
I gather the steam engined Fords were not successful and only 4 were produced.
Around 1948, he started the company Econom to produce trucks but could not compete with larger firms and closed that company in ca. 1954.
Shortly after that, he was awarded a Ford dealership franchise in Berlin/Spandau. I think it still operates under that name although Butenuth passed away in 1990.
Below is the only other photo I found, all 3 seeming to come from all sorts of ebay type sources, and I suspect all 3 photos are of the same truck.
If anyone has more information and/or photos, I personally would appreciate it if it could be posted here. A most interesting and very small part of automotive history.
Some more details to the facts gathered by Bill:
Hellmuth Butenuth was born in 1898. During his studies at the Technische Hochschule Hannover he developed a tandem-seater threewheeler which was marketed in 1922/23 as the Bufag. After he finishec his university studies he was employed by Hanomag, where he did some refinements on the 2/10 PS (http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=1870), of which he drove several racing versions (http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=19885.msg204702#msg204702 and http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=20505). He did the construction work for the 3/16 PS, and was part of the construction team for the Garant, Rekord and Sturm. Shortly before WW2 he left Hanomag, took over the Hanomag franchise for Berlin and Brandenburg, bought the coachbuilder Papler and finally changed his Hanomag dealership for the main Ford dealership in Berlin which he kept for the rest of his life.
His steam-engined Ford used many engine parts of the gasoline engine. It was to be built and sold by the Berliner Dampfmotorengesellschaft (BDG). But all equipment and constructions were finally confiscated by the Russians around 1947, to be carried to Leningrad. In 1949 Butenuth founded the Econom company which produced cca. 1000 municipal trucks (http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=26468) until the mid-fifties. He also constructed the Econom Teddy microcar (#1 in http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=5589.0).