I'm copying "Woodinsight" here - motor sport from the "Golden Age". For one point tell me the year and place. If you can tell me the names of the drivers (with proof) you get another 2 points. (I don't know).
That's a good 'un. 8)
Quote from: Allan L on October 08, 2013, 05:32:03 AM
That's a good 'un. 8)
I suspect it will be on these pages for many moons. On the other hand, the members of our band of brothers never fail to amaze me.....
Experts?
Silverstone 1929 ?
Quote from: mekubb on October 14, 2013, 05:39:28 AM
Silverstone 1929 ?
No and no. But it is in the UK, although I suppose that was fairly obvious.
(BTW I meant to add - Silverstone was opened as an RAF base in 1943, so your date is waaaaay out. Airfield circuits proliferated in the UK after WW2 because they were readily available for motor sport use. Now there's a hint concerning the date, and as to why those type of cars were there.
Is the event being run in a counter clockwise direction?
Quote from: richard fridd on October 17, 2013, 02:36:34 AM
Is the event being run in a counter clockwise direction?
Now that's actually a very good question. The photo shows the circuit almost unrecognisable from what it later became, and indeed I was not sure myself. I have checked a good source which refers to circuits thoughout their history, and it appears that the track was always negotiated in a clockwise direction.
Is picture of the modern day startline position, if so Snetterton?
Quote from: richard fridd on October 17, 2013, 03:29:32 PM
Is picture of the modern day startline position, if so Snetterton?
Yes! Well done. It's Snetterton , or Snetterton Heath as it was known, after the title of the former USAAF base on that site. Just give me the date of the event (the year will do) and the point's yours.
Is it the 1954, the first year of motor racing at Snetterton?
Quote from: richard fridd on October 17, 2013, 11:37:08 PM
Is it the 1954, the first year of motor racing at Snetterton?
Sorry, no. Motor sport took part there before that year. LOCKED for you, though.
According to the book "1946 AND ALL THAT" 27th October 1951 saw an AMOC two lap speed trial, and the following year the first race meeting. So 1951 is my answer.
Quote from: richard fridd on October 18, 2013, 06:16:52 AM
According to the book "1946 AND ALL THAT" 27th October 1951 saw an AMOC two lap speed trial, and the following year the first race meeting. So 1951 is my answer.
And that IS the answer. I have obtained a phototcopy of the entry, and it comprised a few F3 cars, these pre-war Astons, and a few other sports cars, mainly pre-war, but including the Cooper of Cliff Davis. The meeting was supposed to be a sprint, but actually consisted of several heats of 2 flying laps, so it was akin to racing. According to my source, the track maintained its original shape for many years, so that must be the start/finish line we all know, but I don't remember that hangar being there in the 60s. The track always was very wide, and 5-4-5 formations were commonplace.
One point to you - well solved. I wish I hadn't offered those extra 2 points for the drivers' names, although a bit of investigation has given me some information. I'll put it up to the Pros now to see if they can finish it off.
Ken Smith, Smith Buckler
Quote from: pnegyesi on October 18, 2013, 07:45:48 AM
Ken Smith, Smith Buckler
Those names are not on the entry list.
Dennis Poore was there with an Alfa and Ken Wharton won in an ERA
Sorry. I have not been very helpful with my line of setting questions. I require the names of the drivers in the actual cars in the puzzle photo - it's not going to be easy!
Let's try Maurice Geoghegan for the black Aston third from our left and "Bill" Ellwell-Smith in one of the other Astons, perhaps the leftmost one. At the extreme right is it perhaps the Lagonda Rapier of James Crocker?
You had me going on the airfield's identity on this one. I thought Silverstone as the original startline was just past the left-hander of Abbey but you said it wasn't. I could find a reason for it being many of the ex-airfield circuits but not for Snett as I couldn't remember a hangar or even the base for one in 1960-odd when I first went there. Not even a sign of one in some 1958 film on You-tube (mustn't link it) but there is a quick glimpse in a 1952 film which includes Archie Scott-Brown's first race win!
I had a pre-puzzle guess at who would be the first to have a real crack at this one, and I was right! I'm sorry Allan, none of your guesses is correct. I'm having real regrets about this second part of the puzzle - my excellent source advises me that the image is copyrighted by the AMOC. One of this site's editors recently suggested that if anyone was particularly anxious about copyright they shouldn't allow the image on a public site, and it was therefore "fair game". All the same, I reckon it can only be solved by contacting the club, and that would open this site up to possible rebuke.
I'll leave it here for the time being, unless I hear from one of the editors. I have a copy of the programme for the meeting, which comprises an A5 sheet with the title of the meeting on the front, and a numbered list of entries on the back. Typical programme for those times of austerity. The puzzle photo shows some race numbers, and I can therefore "tie-up" those drivers, but the rest will be educated guesswork. A hint - they are all Aston Martins. (I have to confess, I'm no expert on AMs of that era, and they all look the same to me!)
According to Peter Swinger's book (which has been criticised for some inaccuracies), the circuit has had roughly the same format for some time until the recent major changes. His map for 1951 shows a shallow curve before the start/finish called Paddock Bend, which later became more convoluted as Russells. This would fit the curve seen in the background of the image. But that hangar had me for a long time, just like you. It must have been some demolition job - they used to hold B24s. The only hangars I can remember from the early 60s were the ones which housed Foulgers Transport on the left of the main entrance road. My dad used to park there to save the car park charge - Foulgers were customers of his.
STOP PRESS. I have just obtained the details I require - full info to complete the puzzle. I even know who took the photo. BTW the copyright isn't the AMOC's, but the Aston Martin Heritage Trust. Let's see how long this takes you all to solve.
Did Geoff Goddard take the photo?
Quote from: richard fridd on October 23, 2013, 08:37:52 AM
Did Geoff Goddard take the photo?
No, but a good guess. It was taken by friend/family of one of the cars in the photo.
So not Louis Klemantaski then?
Quote from: richard fridd on October 23, 2013, 09:32:30 AM
So not Louis Klemantaski then?
Definitely not - just an amateur.
I have to say, the chances of anyone solving this are very slim. It just happens that my source of information on matters Snetterton sent me a copy of the puzzle picture, and by a fluke the individual cars/drivers are identified on the bottom of the photo in handwriting by one of the contestants. The names are not. of course, on the photo I obtained from the web, which is why I originally stated that I didn't know the answer. This is a real Black Hole candidate.
Anyone famous in the lineup?
I'll suggest the following who were involved in the early Snetterton days and were AMOC members so far as I know:
StJohn Horsfall, Oliver Sear, Fred Riches, Ben Wyatt and Dudley Coram
Quote from: richard fridd on October 23, 2013, 03:36:54 PM
Anyone famous in the lineup?
One of the names is the same as a driver who competed in the British GP at least once. I do not know the others.
Quote from: Allan L on October 23, 2013, 05:46:08 PM
I'll suggest the following who were involved in the early Snetterton days and were AMOC members so far as I know:
StJohn Horsfall, Oliver Sear, Fred Riches, Ben Wyatt and Dudley Coram
As the saying goes - none of the above....
Quote from: nicanary on October 23, 2013, 06:40:57 PM
Quote from: Allan L on October 23, 2013, 05:46:08 PM
I'll suggest the following who were involved in the early Snetterton days and were AMOC members so far as I know:
StJohn Horsfall, Oliver Sear, Fred Riches, Ben Wyatt and Dudley Coram
As the saying goes - none of the above....
Hey-ho!
I really thought Dudley Coram would have been one of 'em as he was a well-known A-M owner for years as well as having a Snetterton corner named after him.
Sorry to disappoint you Allan.
BTW I've been thinking - the cars are shown lined up for the start, but these sprints were for 2 FLYING laps. I checked an old circuit map, and I reckon the photo shows the cars getting ready to be flagged off on a flying run to the start/finish line which is another 100 yards further up the track. They are placed where the exit from the old paddock would have been.
The hangar is shown on programme maps up to 1961, but not on one from 1962 - so it must have been pulled down that winter.
Quote from: nicanary on October 24, 2013, 05:31:49 AM
Sorry to disappoint you Allan.
BTW I've been thinking - the cars are shown lined up for the start, but these sprints were for 2 FLYING laps. I checked an old circuit map, and I reckon the photo shows the cars getting ready to be flagged off on a flying run to the start/finish line which is another 100 yards further up the track. They are placed where the exit from the old paddock would have been.
The hangar is shown on programme maps up to 1961, but not on one from 1962 - so it must have been pulled down that winter.
Knowing the stre4ngth of that east wind, maybe it
blew down? ::)
Quote from: D-type on October 26, 2013, 10:39:34 AM
Quote from: nicanary on October 24, 2013, 05:31:49 AM
Sorry to disappoint you Allan.
BTW I've been thinking - the cars are shown lined up for the start, but these sprints were for 2 FLYING laps. I checked an old circuit map, and I reckon the photo shows the cars getting ready to be flagged off on a flying run to the start/finish line which is another 100 yards further up the track. They are placed where the exit from the old paddock would have been.
The hangar is shown on programme maps up to 1961, but not on one from 1962 - so it must have been pulled down that winter.
Knowing the stre4ngth of that east wind, maybe it blew down? ::)
Too true. God, that place could be cold. I was there for the European Saloon Car Championship 500kms in 1966, and we had everything that day. I think it snowed at one point.
Someone in the racing business once said "there are only two trees between Snetterton and Siberia, and one of those has blown down".
As I have said before, this is a puzzle that is almost impossible to solve. The information required is on a privately-owned photo which I have access to, but which is not publically available.
I feel that there is no point in leaving the puzzle on the Pros site. There is a way to solve it, but it would be a process which many Autopuzzlers would not wish to follow, and I think it is best to transfer the puzzle to the dreaded Black Hole.
do you think the Aston Martin Heritage Trust knows the solution?
I keep returning to this one which I feel I should be able to do more of.
Motor Sport reported the event "over an interesting new course" but only listed the class winners of which the only Aston Martin was the DB2 of Mort Morris-Goodall. Ken Wharton (2 litre ERA) made FTD by a second from Dennis Poore's 3.8 Alfa Romeo.
I think I know that Dudley Coram was CotC so perhaps that's him acting as Starter.
A few more A-M drivers of that era were Derrick Edwards, Tony Riseley, "Bill" Elwell-Smith. John Freeman was racing the Spa car when I knew him a few years later, but I can't see it in that line-up.
Quote from: pnegyesi on June 22, 2015, 01:39:52 AM
do you think the Aston Martin Heritage Trust knows the solution?
Yes! I actually obtained the information from an individual who is an amateur Snetterton historian, and he pointed out to me that the photograph is subject to copyright. The answer to my puzzle can be obtained from either of these sources.
To simplify matters, I will award the point to anyone who can name the driver in the line-up who went on to take part in a Grand Prix and who was responsible for the puzzle image, which is a family photo. The name has not been mentioned yet, I'm afraid. Sorry Allan.
Quote from: nicanary on June 22, 2015, 05:47:27 AM
To simplify matters, I will award the point to anyone who can name the driver in the line-up who went on to take part in a Grand Prix and who was responsible for the puzzle image, which is a family photo. The name has not been mentioned yet, I'm afraid. Sorry Allan.
Drivers, left to right: Noar, Pulman, Leslie Marr, Sims, A.B. 'Bow' Stewart, and Derrick Edwards. The Ulster driven by Stewart (chassis A5/537/U, registration CML 719) belonged to Bow and his brother Peter. The Stewarts were responsible for the puzzle image (see below).
I'll be honest. I'd forgotten all about this puzzle. I've actually disposed of my notes, but you have obviously tracked down the source of the puzzle.The information could have been obtained from the Aston Martin Heritage Trust although I got it from Andrew Kitson who lives near the track and has a large archive relating to it.
All I can say is very well done. I offered 2 points for naming the drivers and since this is a BH puzzle we can double that. 4 points to you.
BTW the L.Marr is Leslie Marr who drove for Connaught in 1954/55 at the British GP.
Quote from: nicanary on December 25, 2019, 04:20:32 AMAll I can say is very well done. I offered 2 points for naming the drivers and since this is a BH puzzle we can double that. 4 points to you.
Thanks for the points!
Quote from: nicanary on December 25, 2019, 04:20:32 AM
BTW the L.Marr is Leslie Marr who drove for Connaught in 1954/55 at the British GP.
and Derrick Edwards was Leslie Marr's mechanic so worked on his Connaughts
Quote from: Allan L on December 25, 2019, 05:05:48 PM
Quote from: nicanary on December 25, 2019, 04:20:32 AM
BTW the L.Marr is Leslie Marr who drove for Connaught in 1954/55 at the British GP.
and Derrick Edwards was Leslie Marr's mechanic so worked on his Connaughts
Didn't know that. Thanks Allan L . I know Edwards was an Aston marque specialist for many years.