What's this and when and where was this picture taken, for 1 point?:
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Experts?
BMW related ?
It's a Bristol by Touring, from Geneva 1948!
Quote from: Iluvatar on November 07, 2013, 07:00:42 AM
It's a Bristol by Touring, from Geneva 1948!
It's a Bristol, but not by Touring (AFAIK) and not from 1948; nor was it shown at Geneva!
Since it's fairly obviously a Bristol I won't lock it yet..
Maybe it's the Frazer-Nash (chassis 421/E2) with Bristol engine (n.1056) and Touring Spyder body?
Quote from: Carnut on November 07, 2013, 07:04:42 AM
[...]not from 1948; nor was it shown at Geneva!
This picture from Geneva Motor Show (I have it as 1948) showes what it looks to be the same car...
I agree it does indeed look to be the same car, although the description of it on the website you got that picture from is different from the description as I have it. On there it says, as you wrote, it's a Frazer Nash with a Bristol engine and Touring body, which is not what it says elsewhere!
The puzzle picture also looks like Geneva, but the car isn't in the same place on the stand as it is in your picture (or in the other picture posted below of the Bristol stand at Geneva in 1948).
When I found this picture there was very little information about the car so I thought if I wanted to post it here I needed to find out more, so I researched it as much as I could. I found certain information out about it written by a guy who seemed to know what he was talking about, and it describes exactly where it fitted into Bristol's production and plans. I don't know whether it's right or wrong, but it seems plausible.
For the sake of this puzzle let's assume he was right, so I still need to know what model he says this is. Incidentally he even gave the name of the current owner of the car, which still exists! That's if it's the right car...
Locked for you therefore to see if you can find what I did, then after that we'll decide who's right and who's wrong!
Oh, and the puzzle picture isn't reversed as it looks like it might have been if taken at the same '48 Geneva Show, as the writing you can see in it is the right way round, and it's RHD in all the pictures anyway!
Looking further into it I don't think my source is right...!
Looking to the puzzle picture I see there is a car behind the puzzle car with a cover with the name "Renault"... and the Renault stand at Geneva 1948 is just behind the Bristol stand... (see the last picture) ;)
I'll look for more infos...
From Negri Foundation - Carrozzeria Touring pictures...
Roadster su telaio Frazer-Nash 2000 eseguita per lo Scià di Persia
I've found a site with your puzzle picture... but there's nothing written about the car...
Quote from: Iluvatar on November 07, 2013, 02:10:00 PM
From Negri Foundation - Carrozzeria Touring pictures...
Roadster su telaio Frazer-Nash 2000 eseguita per lo Scià di Persia
Same picture can be found in the Touring Superleggera website
Quote from: Iluvatar on November 07, 2013, 02:13:40 PM
I've found a site with your puzzle picture... but there's nothing written about the car...
Yes, I know - you've really got to dig to find it!
I note the caption for your other picture calls this a Frazer Nash too! The plot thickens..
Quote from: Iluvatar on November 07, 2013, 07:09:18 AM
Maybe it's the Frazer-Nash (chassis 421/E2) with Bristol engine (n.1056) and Touring Spyder body?
Maybe this is right.
I had it as a Bristol with BMW 328 engine!
I found a site where there was a thread on this car, and an authorititave-sounding guy said:
"It is actually a (Bristol) 400. Before the main production (which began with chassis 100), Bristol built 4 copies, 1-4 chassis. The first is still owned by Bristol Cars. No 2 no longer exists. Nos 3 and 4 took the form of convertibles, only built by Bristol before the 402. I had the pleaseure of driving No 3, and the car in the photo is No 4, currently owned by Andrew Blow."
It also said on the site that this car was on show at the Frankfurt IAA in 1951.
It just goes to show that you can't believe everything you read on the net!
I think it's time to give you your point and call this one solved.
On the Andrew Blow site there is the story of the restoration of a factory built Bristol 400 cabriolet, 1 of 2 produced and showed at Geneva 1947... obviously with BMW engine...
Maybe the "authorititave-sounding" guy had a little confusion between this car and the Touring one... ;)
From the Andrew Blow site:
The picture shows one of the two 1946 Bristol-bodied 400 Cabriolets (on left) and one of the four 1949 Farina-bodied 401 Cabriolets. (Note there were also 2 Farina-bodied 400 Cabriolets, similar but not identical to the photo shown).
[...]
Chassis type Description Number known Chassis number(s)
400 Bristol-bodied Cabriolets 2 3 & 4
400 Farina-bodied Cabriolets 2 102 & 181
400 (probably) Langenthal-bodied Cabriolet 1 not known
400 (probably) "Van den Plas" - bodied sports 1 not known
The two Bristol 3 & 4 together...
Quote from: Carnut on November 08, 2013, 11:44:59 AM
"It is actually a (Bristol) 400. Before the main production (which began with chassis 100), Bristol built 4 copies, 1-4 chassis. The first is still owned by Bristol Cars. No 2 no longer exists. Nos 3 and 4 took the form of convertibles, only built by Bristol before the 402. I had the pleaseure of driving No 3, and the car in the photo is No 4, currently owned by Andrew Blow."
After further research I can say that the full story is indeed right... the only problem is that the car is the cream Bristol 400 cabriolet and not the Touring Frazer-Nash... the guy was a little bit confused... ???
Great - so we got it right in the end!
But how could anyone confuse that rather ugly Bristol with the quite beautiful Touring F-N?! Or maybe it was that red 401 he was thinking of, which I suppose could be possible to confuse it with 60 years on..
I think it's simply the tangled history of the 3 marques. Prewar Frazer Nash marketed the BMW 328 as a Frazer Nash or a Frazer Nash - BMW. Postwar they also rebadged a 'liberated' Mille Miglia BMW as a Frazer Nash 'Grand Prix'. In parallel, Bristol acquired the rights to the BMW design and the 400 was virtually a British made BMW with imperial bolts instead of metric. And Frazer nash used the Bristol engine.
So, at different times, this car might have carried either maker's badging.
Because we all like additional period pics:
Quote from: 75america on November 09, 2013, 02:51:41 AM
Because we all like additional period pics:
Pictures shooted in Piazzale Santorre di Santarosa, in Milan, a common background for Touring pictures...
A beautiful car in a beautiful place.
For one point, please respond and identify this car.
Jaguar XK 150, to start?
No
Lancia Aurelia?
No
Talbot-Lago?
No
Delahaye 135 by Guilloré?
No Delahaye
Delage?
No
Alfa Romeo?
No
Does this have anything to do with Villa d'Este?
I don't know where the picture was taken
Italian?
Partially
Italian _coachbuilder_?
Yes
Bristol 402 by Carrozzeria Touring?
Yes, a Bristol roadster by Carrozzeria Touring. I don't know whether it is a 401 or a 402. Do you have any proof or better pictures?
Anyway, one point for you.
I saw lots of those fender lines on Touring projects, including some Bristol coupes. I will look for better pictures.
Can't it also be a 48s Frazer-Nash by Touring?
I believe Herr Sichel is right. I found the same picture on a coachbuilder site with this caption:
"Frazer-Nash 2000 Spider
Another "unique piece" made by Touring. It is a 2000cc Fraser-Nash spider specially built for the Shah of Persia Reza Palhavi in 1948. Pictured here on the Pincio terrace in Rome, early June 1948, presented at the Concorso d'Eleganza. The small English house, which was part of the Bristol group, exploited the mechanics of the BMW 328, on the basis of a license agreement contracted with the Munich house before the war." So there is a Bristol connection.
Which probably makes it a repost of this:
https://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/2013-42/solved-neh-3070-touring-bodied-frazer-nash-with-bristol-engine-at-geneva-show-19/msg298987/#msg298987
There also a picture on NEH 3070 puzzle showing the car in the same location as the puzzle picture on this thread, but with the car the other way round and with an extra tree or two..
There was a lot of discussion about the Bristol and Frazer Nash connection in that puzzle too but it was resolved in the end that it was actually a Frazer Nash..
Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I found the pictures labelled as Touring BMWs which I was quite sure they weren't. So I fell for the obvious regarding the similarity in appearance to the Bristol 401 Touring coupe. I still wondered why this beautiful "Bristol" wasn't mentioned anywhere. Now I know why. I'll change the headline and merge these threads.
I added a fitting picture in the first post. I don't know if it was the real puzzle picture.