There are vehicles that one wishes would be used as little as possible. This is one such example.
The following information is needed for one point: Manufacturer and type of truck, manufacturer of turntable ladder, year of commissioning.
Up to Experts.
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Saurer D330B with Metz 30S aerial ladder, 1981?
Saurer: Yes
D330B: partly, wrong letter
Metz ladder: yes
1981: My source mentions a different year for the commissioning.
One source says Saurer D330F, two other sources D330B
I've only 1981..
See attachments
According to my source (it is based on information from long-time Saurer employees), at that time there were at most two letters for the type designation. One referred to the engine type and a second to the chassis...
If we look at the type plate on the radiator grille, this means: two letters for the type designation (with the "D" it is even three...).
The puzzle vehicle was put into service at a specific fire brigade at a documented time. This was not in 1981.
The vehicle with the livery of the puzzle-truck is that of the fire brigade Landquart, Graubünden, Swiss, with registration plate GR 427. With type designation on the radiator grille 'D330B'. Have two proofs for that.
Originally this truck has been built for Berufsfeuerwehr Basel, wearing type designation '5 DF' on the radiator grille. Thie vehicle wore a different livery at this time. See attached picture. Are you looking for that one?
Yes, it is the turntable ladder from Basel. The type designation does not seem to be entirely clear. We can still try to clarify this. For now, however, the year of commissioning is still missing. Locked for you to clarify this question.
Ok. The Basel-Saurer isn't identical with the Landquart-Saurer, you questioned for at first.
So, here the specifications of the Basel-Saurer:
Saurer 5DF D2KT 1976 with cabine-body by Frech-Hoch
The specifications of the Landquart-Saurer (original puzzle-fire truck):
Saurer D330B 1981
The puzzle vehicle was also first registered in Basel before it came to Landquart. It is not a D 330 B, the letter "B" never stood alone in the type designations at Saurer. The correct type designation can be found in your documents.
So then it's called a Saurer D330BF?
This is one of two possibilities, the other is in your records. The solution is not entirely clear.
Please name or guess the year of commissioning first, then we can talk shop.
I have already announced the year when the vehicle was put into operation in Basel: 1976
The puzzle ladder is younger.
1978?
Even younger.
1979?
Very close to it.
So only 1980 left..?
Yes, you are right.
Then I will try to shed some light on the matter. The puzzle ladder is a Saurer D330 F4x2 (See also the "bos" document), chassis number 210 xxx, D2KT-engine. It was put into service with the Basel professional fire brigade on 8.2.1980.
So, now to the letter "B": Saurer developed an engine series (D3KT- and D4KT-) with so-called "constant power characteristics" which resulted in lower consumption. Primarily, the series was characterised by a very high torque increase at low engine speeds, the so-called "buffalo characteristic". Hence the designation "B" for this series, which was used from June 1980, i.e. after the production of the puzzle vehicle, which was given a D2KT.
Where does the "B" on the radiator grille come from? I can only guess: Either it got a D4KT engine in the course of its career or someone had a D330B plate left ;-) The puzzle picture was taken in 2007...
Be that as it may: Here is a point for fromwien.
Sorry, I'm still concerned, despite your attempt of clarification, as your last attached picture of the vehicle again shows a photo of a fire engine, which was in service with the Landquart Fire Department, Graubünden, Swiss, with registration plate GR 427.
Please be so kind and check my first answers!
With the bos-proof. Are they wrong with D330B and D330F for the type and 1981? I've checked with the help of a Swiss friend: This vehicle has been registered with the plate 'GR 427' in 1981!!!
After I've sent the picture of the vehicle in service of the Basel Fire Department, you answered me, that I should search for a fire-truck in service of the Basel Fire Department.
But now we know, because of your latest added picture, that you were searching for a vehicle in service of the Landquart Fire Department, Graubünden, Swiss, with registration plate GR 427.
Please be so kind and clarify, what you were searching for. Thanks in advance
According to my source, the puzzle ladder was put into operation in Basel. Apparently it moved to Landquart as early as 1981. The chassis number of the Landquart vehicle could be helpful...
Unfortunately, the hompages of the two fire brigades do not provide any information on our problem children.
The author of my source is the president of the Saurer Club Switzerland...
Quote from: fromwien on February 11, 2023, 10:16:54 AM
One source says Saurer D330F, two other sources D330B
I've only 1981..
See attachments
What was wrong with my reply #3?? 1981?? I've sent a proof to you!! May you be so kind and send me one, that shows that my source went wrong? And yours is the right one?
For remembering, I added all the proofs of 'reply #3' again!
I have already pointed out to you that your source gives a 330 F as the chassis. So what is the problem?
I will not respond to correspondence in this tone in future!
Quote from: fromwien on February 13, 2023, 05:29:38 PM
Quote from: fromwien on February 11, 2023, 10:16:54 AM
One source says Saurer D330F, two other sources D330B
I've only 1981..
See attachments
What was wrong with my reply #3?? 1981?? I've sent a proof to you!! May you be so kind and send me one, that shows that my source went wrong? And yours is the right one?
For remembering, I added all the proofs of 'reply #3' again!
Quote from: sichel on February 13, 2023, 05:46:25 PM
I have already pointed out to you that your source gives a 330 F as the chassis. So what is the problem?
I will not respond to correspondence in this tone in future!
I will not respond to correspondence in this tone in future!
1) What was wrong with my reply #3?? What do you consider rude in this question?
2) 1981?? What do you consider rude in this question?
3) I've sent a proof to you!! What do you consider rude in this statement?
4) May you be so kind and send me one, that shows that my source went wrong? What do you consider rude in this question?
5) And yours is the right one? What do you consider rude in this question?
6) For remembering, I added all the proofs of 'reply #3' again! What do you consider rude in this statement?
If I can offer you a proof, that shows a production and registration date, which differs to that one, you mean to be the correct one, it won't be rude anyway, to kindly ask for a proof (as to be seen above). Or do you think so?
Then just send production and registration date of "GR 421" from Landquart. Then maybe the Gordian knot can be cut.
Nice trial. In legal jargon, this is referred to as a reversal of the burden of proof.
Please excuse me politely and politely, the 1980 claim is yours, without any proof. But, according to you, by a very experienced person. I don't want to doubt his knowledge, but there is a picture of the vehicle with a Basel license plate that was taken in 1979 (see attached picture with Basel-license-plate). So I doubt it was first registered in Basel in 1980. At the time as the vehicle has been sold to the current owner, the year of production has been stated with 1976. I would really appreciate some evidence confirming it was built in 1980.
With reply #6, you corrected me, that the 'B' on the radiator grille, never stands alone. Ever with another letter. Furthermore you stated, that with the 'D', there are minimum three letters on the badge.
But sorry, it isn't. See my previous proofs please. This vehicle wore three subsequently modernized radiator grilles. One with the badge '5 DF', one with '330' and one with '330B'. Never with a second letter.
Further:
You indicated 'by Metz' in the puzzle-designation. The turntable ladder comes from Metz. But some sources mentions, that the vehicle body was built at Frech-Hoch in Switzerland
Quote from: fromwien on February 14, 2023, 03:13:06 AM
but there is a picture of the vehicle with a Basel license plate that was taken in 1979 (see attached picture with Basel-license-plate).
I think it is doubtful that this is the puzzle vehicle (e.g. paintwork), you always ask for proof... I could well imagine that a city like Basel had more than one Saurer turntable ladder.
Quote from: fromwien on February 14, 2023, 03:13:06 AM
With reply #6, you corrected me, that the 'B' on the radiator grille, never stands alone. Ever with another letter. Furthermore you stated, that with the 'D', there are minimum three letters on the badge.
But sorry, it isn't. See my previous proofs please. This vehicle wore three subsequently modernized radiator grilles. One with the badge '5 DF', one with '330' and one with '330B'. Never with a second letter.
Please read correctly, this reference was to the manufacturer's type designations, not to any plates on the vehicle.
Quote from: sichel on February 14, 2023, 03:34:59 AM
Quote from: fromwien on February 14, 2023, 03:13:06 AM
but there is a picture of the vehicle with a Basel license plate that was taken in 1979 (see attached picture with Basel-license-plate).
I think it is doubtful that this is the puzzle vehicle (e.g. paintwork), you always ask for proof... I could well imagine that a city like Basel had more than one Saurer turntable ladder.
I agree completely with you, that it may be possible, that several of the same fire-fighting vehicles were in service by the Basel Fire Departement. But this again, is only a guess.
What we both know, is that a Saurer with Metz-ladder from the Basel Fire Department was later in service at the Landquart Fire Department. As you insisted to get a exact production date of the puzzle vehicle, I offered you some opportunities with proofs. You claimed that these are not identical with the puzzle vehicle. Which is quite possible. But then you should also be able to provide proof of this. But unfortunately this never happened.
In my mind it is'nt a shame, if the puzzle-setter (also me) doesn't know about exact details of a puzzle car, and therefore leave room for discussion for further research. In the end, the solution should be very near the truth, I think.