Author Topic: Styling Firsts  (Read 18030 times)

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Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2008, 03:23:42 AM »
I vaguely recall a 'dream car' from some years ago which also featured 'pop-out' headlights. In other words, when deployed, they expanded out from the side of the front fenders. Anyone else remember that one?
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Offline Allemano

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2008, 04:26:56 AM »
Do you mean Exner's Mercer?

Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2008, 06:19:06 AM »
That's the one!

Thanks :)

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« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 06:23:02 AM by Otto Puzzell »
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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2009, 12:02:12 PM »
Talking about aerodynamic models, here it is "Persu Automobile", built between 1922 and 1924 by Aurel Persu (see Wikipedia). He did this work of its personal money, switching between more workshops. Parameters of the vehicle: aerodinamic coefficient 0,22, speed 60-80km/h!

Offline Ray B.

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2009, 12:44:07 PM »
Amazing, and not unknown to Autopuzzles.com, of course.
http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=4068.0
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Offline motorcar1

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2009, 10:00:15 AM »
You know, I have read both pro's and con's regarding pop up headlights.

It seems that when a designer breaks the molds from (then) designing thoughts, he is often criticized after the fact, this is for any automotive inovations.

Yes, the drag on a vehicle with pop up headlights is quite extensive, But, we loose the fact of their major benefit for less drag in wind tunnel tests.
Plus;
Lest we forget that the basic designs of pop up headlights are what gave us plastic aero type headlamp benefits without being "popped up".
All great idea's/designs start and then are usually improved upon as evidenced by our own automobile history in design.

I am kind of confused on Buerhigs pop up headlights, weren't  they first drawn & patented as being on the side of the fenders, and not in a smooth front fender style?
Maybe he and others were in the early stages until somebody figured out that they needed to flow in design with the cars front body / nose structure and design?

There have been many street cars built in the past bringing forth aero, tear drop and streamlined designs from the late 1800's on.
It seems that they all became more refined in design as each copied others thoughts in design for a efficient clean air/less drag design.

I often wonder which early designed and built street car really holds the title for being the best in wind tunnel testing?

John






Offline piersdad

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2009, 01:36:06 AM »
when we built the coNZept we had headlights behind clear plastic and as we had no space for indicators we shone an orange bulb into the head light  reflector.
the result was spectacular as even at night the whole headlight would change from white to orange and at day light it flashed orange.

when in traffic the indication in the front of the vehicle is more important than from the rear where you are following the car.
when a car is turning and approaching you really need to know positivley that they are turning.

modern cars have nearly got it  but not quite yet with the indicators facing forward in the head light cowl.(not back to the headlight reflector)
the impossible immediately miracles a little longer

Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2009, 04:15:39 AM »
I am kind of confused on Buerhigs pop up headlights, weren't  they first drawn & patented as being on the side of the fenders, and not in a smooth front fender style?

I recall reading that somewhere, as well.
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Offline motorcar1

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2009, 12:33:18 AM »
Otto Puzzle,

I have been heavily involved in the Tucker Conv at the Tucker club forums, we were the others. as mentioned, and John from Nebo in the ESPN talks, newspapers and in other commentaries, we were the ones originally purchasing the infamous Tucker Convertible.
We picked up our marbles and walked after several hundred hours of research !!!!

I am not new to differences and thoughts of who did what and when, I learned a lot..

A person on the Tucker site brought forth info about Gordon Buehrigs design of the pop open headlamps.
I am still researching the facts, it may be though, as we mentioned above, that Gordon changed his headlights in his patented design to what Bens styling was on the Harris car. Others agree that the patents are not what was the final product  appeared as in Gordon's creation.
We shall see what else surfaces.

The reason it even came up on the Tucker site;  Seems Alex Tremulis may have borrowed some of Bens ideas in some of his later famous designs,
A very beautiful car, Alex designed, was going to auction, it was posted on the site, other designs of his were also shown, thats when the comparisons showed up.

You must realize that Alex was a mere 19-20 years old when he was affilated with Gordon at ACD, this all occured when Ben was creating his car and Cord himself was pictured with it in a magazine in a finished state.
Go figure, huh >>>.

I do not say Futuristic car, as I have never been able to get true definitions to write or describe the car in detail for histories sake.

What is it Otto Puzzell , how do you write about it, futuristic, custom, concept, streamliner or all combined ?
Is there a singular car, built back then, that innovated so much into one design, and then carried over to modern day in various fashions, size, weights, engine, simplified fwd, aero dynamics etc?
How do you write about Ben?
The people he ran with?
How do you write about Biggs and how the Harris even got there?
How do you write about it gracing the front cover of the NY International Shows brochure> beating all manufactures for that prestigous right?
I marvel, to this day, at how he flat broke away from everybodies thoughts, how he combined innovations>old and new> and then set out to create a new design and car in almost all fashion, all wrapped up into one astounding car, > 74 years ago.

Did he unknowingly create what was to come and did it happen, how do you write about it without seemingly being arogant ??????
Is there another car in the History books, that brought soooooo much forward at one time, how in the hell do you write about it ??????

Is it best as a book, we so much desire to have the "complete" story told for Ben.

I am supposed to be sending an article on Bens car to Road and Track magazine  and others as well as" here".
I made contact with the main person, very nice gentleman, from Road and track.
He is fascinated with the car and even more astounded that the magazine covered it in 4 pages in 1953, roughly 3 months after Road and Track went public.
Fifty six years later, it will return to grace their pages as well as here.

Ironically, a retro article, something seldom done, appeared in my new Road and Track magazine I received today, it's an article and photos of the 1938 Audi race car next to the agressive new Audi..

Do truly appreciate your comments as well as others and I desire to learn and research more so I can truly finish my work on this very special car, 22 years of research is enough. Today I finally got to the person that controls much of the archive records of the SCCA.
As I think I mentioned,  Ben hosted and started SCCA racing in Illinois, just think, the wacky arnolt bristols and more racing at his events, his ties are astonishing, even sat for dinner with Roosevelt. Hopefully the archives will give me and document what I need to finish another chapter for Ben and his car.
The caretaker of Bens creation,
What a nightmare
John
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 09:16:00 AM by motorcar1 »

Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2009, 05:53:00 AM »
The caretaker of Bens creation,
What a nightmare
John

Many would love to be part of that nightmare, if time and logistics allowed. You have a unique perspective on this interesting subject, and can't wait to read more.
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Offline motorcar1

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2009, 09:40:57 PM »
Otto Puzzell,
Thanks for wishing to read more.
I have a question to for any Auto Puzzler's.

Bens son moved to California, Ben moved their in his later years.
Is there anyone from California that might help me out with an interview with Ben's sons wife, Mrs Harris.

She is elderely but said she had papers, articles, letters, painting of  the car, an auto design of Bens signed by Roosevelt to keep up his designing, SCCA, Buerhig and more.
Could be some real interesting reading and stories of many known people from Bens life that turn up also.

Second,
I ran down Mrs Buerhig,
Gordons daughter, in NY, has most of Gordons effects now.
Would be most interesting, pictures, letters etcetera, Ben was Gordons best man at his wedding and they were friends until their deaths remember. Who knows who else might turn up in the pictures are other papers and letters.
Anyone from the NY area that may be interested in interviewing her.

I do hope that both are alive and well, it has been 4 years since I spoke with them.

John

Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2009, 03:07:17 AM »
I believe we have some members in California - we'll reach out to the folks here.
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Offline Carnut

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2009, 11:33:08 AM »
To move the subject slightly to quad headlights;  you say they appeared first in the 1950s, and I have a book which speicifically states that they first appeared on one of the the Dodge Firearrows in 1954.

Well I have a picture (below) of a 1949 Alfa Romeo 2500C with very modern-looking quad headlights, which I assume it had from new.

So they may well have appeared first in the 1950s in the USA but they appeared in the 1940s already in Europe!
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Offline Paul Jaray

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2009, 03:06:44 PM »
This car is an Alfa Romeo 6C 2500 SS Spider by Pininfarina from 1948!
'One of Pinifarina's masterpieces. Round perfectly matching shapes. A derivation of the 1938 Aprilia and a forerunner of the 1951 Nash Healey. Front with paired headlights and upper vizor. Very smart flat raked rear. One-off model.'

...Here should be the pic....
I'll upload when able (but it's the spider version of the one above)
(BTW the one above is a AR 6C 2500 S Berlinetta from 1951, first owner Mr. Musumeci. There is also another 6C 2500 SS Cabriolet Speciale, from 1950, built for the Aga Khan.)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 03:13:12 PM by Paul Jaray »

Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2009, 04:48:44 AM »
To move the subject slightly to quad headlights;  you say they appeared first in the 1950s, and I have a book which speicifically states that they first appeared on one of the the Dodge Firearrows in 1954.

Well I have a picture (below) of a 1949 Alfa Romeo 2500C with very modern-looking quad headlights, which I assume it had from new.

So they may well have appeared first in the 1950s in the USA but they appeared in the 1940s already in Europe!

Yes, yes, Europe - second only to Mother Russia in inventing everything. Pierce-Arrow sold four-headlight cars in the in 1930's. I am not an automotive historian by trade, nor do I have an extensive library of books and magazines about one-off's, coachbuilt whatzits, etc.

The point of quad-headlights item related to production automobiles that went against laws then-prevalent in most US states against quad headlights. In 1940, a consortium of state motor vehicle administrators standardized upon a system of two 7 in (178 mm) round sealed beam headlamps on all vehicles — the only system allowed for 17 years. Ostensibly, this made sure that a motorist could buy a replacement headlight any any filling station or repair shop. Customs and showcars were frequently rolled out in the 50's that had this "new" feature, but dowdy old AMC added them as eye-candy to it's soon-to-be retired Nash. That year, Chrysler and Cadillac added them to some models, as well.  Was anybody buying quad headlight Alfa's in the US back then? Doubtful, as they likely rusted to bits on the trip across the salty Atlantic, leaving the hapless buyer with a pile of iron oxide and a bill of sale.

Now, let's see who will post a picture of 1899 Daimler with four gas lamps...
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Offline Carnut

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2009, 12:11:12 PM »
Don't think anyone was buying Alfas with quad lamps anywhere in the 1950s because they didn't make any!  They seem, as you say, to have been confined to concept cars and one-offs (incl the Pininfarina-bodied Alfa I showed the picture of) .  Don't think any Alfas had 4 headlamps until the Giulias of the mid 1960s.

I do recall though seeing an American bus in an old B&W film from the 1940s with 4 headlights..

Having 4 headlights though is not quite the same thing as the quad headlight set-up with them grouped in 2 pairs, and don't think there was anything quite like that before WW2.  Or maybe the Russians had a car with them...
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Offline Ray B.

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2009, 01:25:38 PM »
... as they likely rusted to bits on the trip across the salty Atlantic, leaving the hapless buyer with a pile of iron oxide and a bill of sale...

That was a below the belt comment, Otto, but with some truth in it nevertheless.
Italian steel in the postwar years has a reputation of poor quality, and well into the seventies. The collectors of Peugeot 504 coupes by Pininfarina will testify that they keep fixing holes in them.
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Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2009, 03:12:44 AM »
Uncle Martin's metamorphosis continues. His head is growing larger, and changing colors!
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Offline MG

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2010, 06:35:00 PM »
Porridgehead is the second best automotive commentator in the world ! @##$   :lmao:
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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2010, 10:33:28 AM »
Just thinking out loud here.

Why do a lot of "automotive writers" talk about that all identity of cars have gone, because of the aerodynamic designs of the late 80's and 90's (most books I have don't seem to go into the 00's), but forget that we have seen copying of style in all kinds of products for and since then. Probably this is due to a lot of the writers of those books being born just after the war, whereas I am born in the eighties and have no feelings of nostalgia towards 50's cars when compared to those of the 90's.

Just to name a very early example where you could see copying of design in cars: A lot of the cars of the 1900's seem to have a bonnet which is sloping on all sides, like this one:
.

It's not just linked to French cars:

Though this Daimler has one too...


And this American car too...

Offline grobmotorix

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2010, 04:10:33 PM »
There were tons of cars that´ve used this kind of front end type in the first decade if the20th century.

Here´s another example of very early limousine style aerodynamics.

It´a 1913 scan from my collection:

Offline Vincent Vell Vet

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2011, 04:55:50 PM »
I read Otto's article a year ago when I was beginning to explore Autopuzzles.com and I thought it was great stuff, the kind that I would have liked to read more often in car magazines. The kind that I would have liked to write myself if I had more time and my English was more fluent and reliable.
In the meantime, here is a link to a french website with no less than 132 pages about ressemblances (not all them unvolontary by far) in automobile design. Maybe you knew it, maybe you didn't. If you don't speak french, just look at the pretty pictures.
Quite interesting.
http://leroux.andre.free.fr/simi.htm

Of course this may be revealing a source, but sometimes sharing is worthwile.
Late to the party/new guy's take on the "Pairings".
Please no offence to you Ray, but I find this list sophmoric at best and seems to prove limited automotive knowlage to the author.
A '56 DeSoto being the best comparison to a '60s Volvo 122 Amazon? The BMC shares the headlight area with the Ferrari Daytona and that's about it. And Austin Healey and an early Datsun Fairlady? Ummm...no! :) On the Daimler Empress and the  Bentley Lanchaster. Aren't they comparing two cars built by Hooper? Of course they look alike!
Anyway, I did find a few comparisons to be somewhat interesting, and I do thank you for posting the list. Just my opinion from my personal perspective!  Here's a pic of me for you to mull over! :ranton:

Offline DeAutogids

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2011, 05:05:18 PM »
Styling firsts.

We have not gone in-depth here. That is by no means a critique on anybody.
I think we can ask ourselves many questions on styling firsts.

The "ponton"-styling, for example.
The first car with a sun roof.
The first car with a raked windscreen.
The first use of a spoiler on a production car.

To name a few.

Offline grobmotorix

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2011, 06:06:02 PM »
Quote
The first use of a spoiler on a production car.

The first thing that comes to my mind is the 1953 aftermarket "Tiefensteuer" for the Split-Beetle by KAMEI:

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2011, 06:12:35 PM »
What I´d like to see is an earlier example of modern type aluminium mags: