Author Topic: Styling Firsts  (Read 18026 times)

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Offline Otto Puzzell

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Styling Firsts
« on: October 23, 2006, 05:19:01 AM »
Lets explore what we know – or think we know – about who incorporated what styling elements in their designs first.

http://www.autopuzzles.com/afeature11.htm
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Offline Stephen M

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2006, 12:14:50 PM »
Great read!

I would think that pop-up headlights, like T-tops, are gone for good...but you never know what the retro trend may resurrect next.

-Stephen M
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Offline porridgehead

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2006, 10:51:46 PM »
This brings up one of my favorite subjects: aerodynamics. Not that I know anything about aerodynamics, it's just that I like watching faces fall and people turn away whenever I go to parties. The very first automobiles did not give much thought to aerodynamics, because, let's face it, it was all they could do to make the fool things move, turn and stop on command. Once that bit was sorted out, (sorta - they're still working on it), the next step was to make them better able to attract the ladies (sorta – they're still working on it.) This usually involved speed and bits of derring-do that left the hapless driver broken and crippled, yet somehow very attractive to young ladies who liked broken cripples. It was the speedy parts that caused a young zeppelin designer (really!) to think that, rather than push air about all nilly y willie, a barn door would be far more slippery at speed, or even stationary for the matter. Once this proved to be the case, our hero, Paul Jaray, felt that a zeppelin-like design might prove even more efficient. Though the barn door beginnings were still present in his first effort, at least Paul did not choose to mount the zeppelin vertically:


As is the case with such visionaries, Jaray's designs were placed high upon the pedestal of ridicule and pelted with rotting vegetables. Undeterred, Jaray decided that seventy five gallon Stetsons were not a requirement for driving fashion and lowered the greenhouse a tad. Suddenly, Audi, Maybach, Benz and Hanomag were taking notice of the strange automobiles. Prototypes were created and the era of the streamliner was born. Tatra created the first production Jaray designs with the Tatra 77 and 87. The customers flocked to stay away. Chrysler, with its much heralded Airflow, paid royalties to Jaray and once the public recognized this fact, they once again ran screaming from the showrooms.




The Jarayform can be traced throughout the history of the automobile, from the early streamliners all the way up to the present, with the Maybach Excelsior being the most current Jarayform that has left the public gasping.


Lest you get the wrong idea about me feeling that Jaray's designs were ugly, nothing could be further from the truth. I find them 'challenging', 'compelling', 'fascinating', 'awkward', 'difficult' and a whole lot of other adjectives in quotes, but never, ever 'ugly'. Jaray was a man who created so much, yet is recognized so little. An engineer of the first order, he put function before form and maintained the engineer given right to keep it that way, no matter what the public or anybody said.
There's a wonderful website full of Jaray information here:
http://www.design-classic-cars.de/jaray/paul-jaray.html
It's in German, so most of you will simply have to enjoy the pretty pictures. Others like me, will content themselves with making interesting sounds as we move our lips when we read. Any way you look at it, Jaray was a man well before his time and worth much more than a tertiary sub-reference of a footnote in automotive history.
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Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2006, 03:37:57 AM »
Wonderfull post!
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Offline Arthur Dent

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2006, 12:03:22 PM »
I think some of the styling of the earlier streamliners actually worked pretty well. I'm a big fan of the big Tatras - the T87 especially. A nice Tatra site: http://www.tatra.demon.nl/ (in english)

of course I rather like pop-up headlights too so I guess there is no accounting for taste.


Offline MG

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2006, 06:06:30 AM »
  This brings up one of my favorite subjects: aerodynamics 

I am curious what the antecedent of "This" is, PuddingPate!

BTW, it seems intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that the early design was inspired by seeing a lady's hat box perched on a delivery wagon.
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Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2006, 06:15:54 AM »
MG - 'twas in the first post in this thread.

Lets explore what we know – or think we know – about who incorporated what styling elements in their designs first.

http://www.autopuzzles.com/afeature11.htm
You wanna be the man, you gotta Name That Car!

Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2007, 04:38:53 AM »
I read elsewhere on the 'net, while researching ACR's first name that car puzzle, that VW tested a 1921 Rumpler in their wind tunnel, and pulled a CD value of 0.28!

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Offline porridgehead

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2007, 02:01:59 PM »
That's something you don't see every day. What an awesome photo!
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Offline Jagman

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2007, 04:34:31 PM »
I don't think you can talk about early aerodynamics without mentioning the first Citroen DS', they were so far ahead of their time when introduced in 1955!



BTW, I've never seen one like this before..........

« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 04:36:38 PM by Jagman »

Offline porridgehead

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2007, 05:33:37 PM »
Is that a Chapron Coupe?
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Offline Stephen M

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2008, 09:48:17 PM »
A bit of a late bump, but just thought that others might like to know that OP's article was cited over on Jalopnik...

http://jalopnik.com/5069475/the-ten-best-car-design-elements-of-all-time

...specifically, they mention that the Hoffmeister Kink appeared on the '60 Dart and link back to OP's piece. Further testament that everything old is new again. :)

« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 10:03:26 AM by Stephen M »
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Offline Bezor

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2008, 01:22:25 AM »
A bit of a late bump, but just thought that others might like to know that KU's article was cited over on Jalopnik...

http://jalopnik.com/5069475/the-ten-best-car-design-elements-of-all-time

...specifically, they mention that the Hoffmeister Kink appeared on the '60 Dart and link back to KU's piece. Further testament that everything old is new again. :)



very cool.  :)

Offline Ultra

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2008, 02:09:03 AM »
A bit of a late bump, but just thought that others might like to know that KU's article was cited over on Jalopnik...

http://jalopnik.com/5069475/the-ten-best-car-design-elements-of-all-time

...specifically, they mention that the Hoffmeister Kink appeared on the '60 Dart and link back to KU's piece. Further testament that everything old is new again. :)



Thank you very much for pointing this out, Stephen M.  You sure are missed around here.


 8)
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Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2008, 03:08:32 AM »
Hmmm...time to change my name again?

Thanks, SM!
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Offline Allemano

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2008, 05:48:42 AM »
That's quite interisting! I've always had in mind that that "Hofmeister" kink was originally invented bei Michelotti. I've recently found a pic of one of his first "Neue Klasse" sketches. The Kink is missing.. And the recognizable BMW "kidney", too.
Investor Herbert Quandt who saved BMW from getting bankrupt wasn't happy with that look and he insisted to keep the kidney at the front.
BMW's design department was forced to improvise very quickly and finally the BMW face of the 60s, 70s and 80s was born!

Actually the Hofmeister "Kink" was firstly shown on the Bertone BMW 3200CS from 1961, but obviousely the very first car with this detail was the Kaiser Frazer from 1951 (!)

Offline Ray B.

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2008, 07:00:56 AM »
I read Otto's article a year ago when I was beginning to explore Autopuzzles.com and I thought it was great stuff, the kind that I would have liked to read more often in car magazines. The kind that I would have liked to write myself if I had more time and my English was more fluent and reliable.
In the meantime, here is a link to a french website with no less than 132 pages about ressemblances (not all them unvolontary by far) in automobile design. Maybe you knew it, maybe you didn't. If you don't speak french, just look at the pretty pictures.
Quite interesting.
http://leroux.andre.free.fr/simi.htm

Of course this may be revealing a source, but sometimes sharing is worthwile.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 07:04:11 AM by Ray B. »
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Offline Allemano

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2008, 07:10:35 AM »
My English is even worse. That's the main reason why I'm not confident enough to set up more articles. Lot's of technical terms are required to avoid any misunderstanding. I'm afraid that's far beyond my abilities.

I've bookmarked the french page a long time ago.
I especially liked the "pairings", but have to admit not each and every example is a hit!

Offline @re

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2008, 07:29:18 AM »
WARNING - This post contains a funny comment by Jeremy Clarkson - WARNING

I hadn't read this one, actually. Thought I'd just leave a comment on the pop-up headlights, as I have owned two cars with that exact feature. I'm not sure that I remember this correctly, but I think it was when Ferrari launched the F512M to replace the 512TR. The pop-up headlights were gone and had been replaced with what we'd now call regular headlights underneath a clear cover. Clarkson, on Top Gear, complained about this, claiming it was an important feature of the legendary Testarossa design, and said that he'd asked the guys at Ferrari why they'd done it. Their response was that, apparently (and quite understandably) the pop-ups destroyed the aerodynamics of the car when traveling at speeds of above 150 mph.

"Stupid reasoning. You should never be driving 150 mph at night." said Clarkson.

WARNING - This post contains a funny comment by Jeremy Clarkson - WARNING
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Offline Stephen M

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2008, 10:04:34 AM »
Hmmm...time to change my name again?


D'OH! Old habits die hard. Original post corrected, OP! :)
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Offline Ultra

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2008, 11:36:02 AM »
I read Otto's article a year ago when I was beginning to explore Autopuzzles.com and I thought it was great stuff, the kind that I would have liked to read more often in car magazines. The kind that I would have liked to write myself if I had more time and my English was more fluent and reliable.

My English is even worse. That's the main reason why I'm not confident enough to set up more articles. Lot's of technical terms are required to avoid any misunderstanding. I'm afraid that's far beyond my abilities.

Gentlemen, don't let language barriers stop you.  If you craft something to the best of your ability Otto, Porridgehead and I will help you edit and finish it to a standard that will make you proud.  We would all benefit from such an effort and I would be proud to help anyone who needed it in any manner I could.

 :nod:
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Offline Otto Puzzell

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2008, 01:11:54 PM »
Hmmm...time to change my name again?


D'OH! Old habits die hard. Original post corrected, OP! :)

No, you're fine. What I ment was, if people we compelled to seek out KU, by virtue of that link, they might search for some newer posts, and think him gone.
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Offline DynaMike

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2008, 05:16:13 PM »
Is that a Chapron Coupe?
Yes, it is a Chapron, indeed. A 1959 DS19 Coupé 'le Paris'. During 1959-1960 nine of thee were built, the earliest ones had the standard (covered) rear fender and no vertical chrome strip.

Offline Bezor

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2008, 02:11:37 AM »
WARNING - This post contains a funny comment by Jeremy Clarkson - WARNING

I hadn't read this one, actually. Thought I'd just leave a comment on the pop-up headlights, as I have owned two cars with that exact feature. I'm not sure that I remember this correctly, but I think it was when Ferrari launched the F512M to replace the 512TR. The pop-up headlights were gone and had been replaced with what we'd now call regular headlights underneath a clear cover. Clarkson, on Top Gear, complained about this, claiming it was an important feature of the legendary Testarossa design, and said that he'd asked the guys at Ferrari why they'd done it. Their response was that, apparently (and quite understandably) the pop-ups destroyed the aerodynamics of the car when traveling at speeds of above 150 mph.

"Stupid reasoning. You should never be driving 150 mph at night." said Clarkson.

WARNING - This post contains a funny comment by Jeremy Clarkson - WARNING

Late to the party on this one....

Miata content here, as I owned two for 13 years.  The first gen. had pop up headlights, huge in proportion to the rest of the front end when in the "up" position.  They could be raised without having the lights on.  With the lights raised, a significant change in aero could be felt.  Lights up, but off (as in not having output) I found worked best in two circumstances, 1) when autocrossing, raising the lights opened up a slit below the headlight which lead to the air-intake, and helped somewhat horsepower and once on grid, an outlet for underhood temp.  2) With the top down, raising the headlights reduced the back-draft of air as it passed over the windshield header.  The reduced wind buffeting was very noticable.

Offline Anton

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Re: Styling Firsts
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2008, 03:16:47 AM »
Ugly pop- up headlamps... Porsche 928, anyone? ;D

Another design first comes to mind. Cizeta Moroder. As far as I know the first and last supercar with four pop- up lights.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 03:20:02 AM by Anton »