Lets explore what we know – or think we know – about who incorporated what styling elements in their designs first.
http://www.autopuzzles.com/afeature11.htm
Great read!
I would think that pop-up headlights, like T-tops, are gone for good...but you never know what the retro trend may resurrect next.
-Stephen M
This brings up one of my favorite subjects: aerodynamics. Not that I know anything about aerodynamics, it's just that I like watching faces fall and people turn away whenever I go to parties. The very first automobiles did not give much thought to aerodynamics, because, let's face it, it was all they could do to make the fool things move, turn and stop on command. Once that bit was sorted out, (sorta - they're still working on it), the next step was to make them better able to attract the ladies (sorta – they're still working on it.) This usually involved speed and bits of derring-do that left the hapless driver broken and crippled, yet somehow very attractive to young ladies who liked broken cripples. It was the speedy parts that caused a young zeppelin designer (really!) to think that, rather than push air about all nilly y willie, a barn door would be far more slippery at speed, or even stationary for the matter. Once this proved to be the case, our hero, Paul Jaray, felt that a zeppelin-like design might prove even more efficient. Though the barn door beginnings were still present in his first effort, at least Paul did not choose to mount the zeppelin vertically:
(http://www.porridgehead.com/vortex/whatcar/Riley%20Macrocephelic.jpg)
As is the case with such visionaries, Jaray's designs were placed high upon the pedestal of ridicule and pelted with rotting vegetables. Undeterred, Jaray decided that seventy five gallon Stetsons were not a requirement for driving fashion and lowered the greenhouse a tad. Suddenly, Audi, Maybach, Benz and Hanomag were taking notice of the strange automobiles. Prototypes were created and the era of the streamliner was born. Tatra created the first production Jaray designs with the Tatra 77 and 87. The customers flocked to stay away. Chrysler, with its much heralded Airflow, paid royalties to Jaray and once the public recognized this fact, they once again ran screaming from the showrooms.
(http://ned.ronet.ru/0/1936%20Tatra%2077A.jpg)
(http://www2.uol.com.br/bestcars/carros/chrysler/airflow.jpg)
The Jarayform can be traced throughout the history of the automobile, from the early streamliners all the way up to the present, with the Maybach Excelsior being the most current Jarayform that has left the public gasping.
(http://e1.news1.yimg.com/e1.yimg.com/ne/061013/motortrend/normal_e12_0508_futuro_maybach_exelero_1.jpg)
Lest you get the wrong idea about me feeling that Jaray's designs were ugly, nothing could be further from the truth. I find them 'challenging', 'compelling', 'fascinating', 'awkward', 'difficult' and a whole lot of other adjectives in quotes, but never, ever 'ugly'. Jaray was a man who created so much, yet is recognized so little. An engineer of the first order, he put function before form and maintained the engineer given right to keep it that way, no matter what the public or anybody said.
There's a wonderful website full of Jaray information here:
http://www.design-classic-cars.de/jaray/paul-jaray.html (http://www.design-classic-cars.de/jaray/paul-jaray.html)
It's in German, so most of you will simply have to enjoy the pretty pictures. Others like me, will content themselves with making interesting sounds as we move our lips when we read. Any way you look at it, Jaray was a man well before his time and worth much more than a tertiary sub-reference of a footnote in automotive history.
Wonderfull post!
I think some of the styling of the earlier streamliners actually worked pretty well. I'm a big fan of the big Tatras - the T87 especially. A nice Tatra site: http://www.tatra.demon.nl/ (in english)
of course I rather like pop-up headlights too so I guess there is no accounting for taste.
This brings up one of my favorite subjects: aerodynamics
I am curious what the antecedent of "This" is, PuddingPate!
BTW, it seems intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that the early design was inspired by seeing a lady's hat box perched on a delivery wagon.
MG - 'twas in the first post in this thread.
Quote from: KarnUtz on October 23, 2006, 05:19:01 AM
Lets explore what we know – or think we know – about who incorporated what styling elements in their designs first.
http://www.autopuzzles.com/afeature11.htm
I read elsewhere on the 'net, while researching ACR's first name that car puzzle, that VW tested a 1921 Rumpler in their wind tunnel, and pulled a CD value of 0.28!
That's something you don't see every day. What an awesome photo!
I don't think you can talk about early aerodynamics without mentioning the first Citroen DS', they were so far ahead of their time when introduced in 1955!
(http://www.jahsonic.com/Citroen.jpg)
BTW, I've never seen one like this before..........
(http://www.automag.be/IMG/citroen_ds_19_copier.jpg)
Is that a Chapron Coupe?
A bit of a late bump, but just thought that others might like to know that OP's article was cited over on Jalopnik...
http://jalopnik.com/5069475/the-ten-best-car-design-elements-of-all-time
...specifically, they mention that the Hoffmeister Kink appeared on the '60 Dart and link back to OP's piece. Further testament that everything old is new again. :)
Quote from: Stephen M on October 29, 2008, 09:48:17 PM
A bit of a late bump, but just thought that others might like to know that KU's article was cited over on Jalopnik...
http://jalopnik.com/5069475/the-ten-best-car-design-elements-of-all-time
...specifically, they mention that the Hoffmeister Kink appeared on the '60 Dart and link back to KU's piece. Further testament that everything old is new again. :)
very cool. :)
Quote from: Stephen M on October 29, 2008, 09:48:17 PM
A bit of a late bump, but just thought that others might like to know that KU's article was cited over on Jalopnik...
http://jalopnik.com/5069475/the-ten-best-car-design-elements-of-all-time
...specifically, they mention that the Hoffmeister Kink appeared on the '60 Dart and link back to KU's piece. Further testament that everything old is new again. :)
Thank you very much for pointing this out, Stephen M. You sure are missed around here.
8)
Hmmm...time to change my name again?
Thanks, SM!
That's quite interisting! I've always had in mind that that "Hofmeister" kink was originally invented bei Michelotti. I've recently found a pic of one of his first "Neue Klasse" sketches. The Kink is missing.. And the recognizable BMW "kidney", too.
Investor Herbert Quandt who saved BMW from getting bankrupt wasn't happy with that look and he insisted to keep the kidney at the front.
BMW's design department was forced to improvise very quickly and finally the BMW face of the 60s, 70s and 80s was born!
Actually the Hofmeister "Kink" was firstly shown on the Bertone BMW 3200CS from 1961, but obviousely the very first car with this detail was the Kaiser Frazer from 1951 (!)
I read Otto's article a year ago when I was beginning to explore Autopuzzles.com and I thought it was great stuff, the kind that I would have liked to read more often in car magazines. The kind that I would have liked to write myself if I had more time and my English was more fluent and reliable.
In the meantime, here is a link to a french website with no less than 132 pages about ressemblances (not all them unvolontary by far) in automobile design. Maybe you knew it, maybe you didn't. If you don't speak french, just look at the pretty pictures.
Quite interesting.
http://leroux.andre.free.fr/simi.htm
Of course this may be revealing a source, but sometimes sharing is worthwile.
My English is even worse. That's the main reason why I'm not confident enough to set up more articles. Lot's of technical terms are required to avoid any misunderstanding. I'm afraid that's far beyond my abilities.
I've bookmarked the french page a long time ago.
I especially liked the "pairings", but have to admit not each and every example is a hit!
WARNING - This post contains a funny comment by Jeremy Clarkson - WARNING
I hadn't read this one, actually. Thought I'd just leave a comment on the pop-up headlights, as I have owned two cars with that exact feature. I'm not sure that I remember this correctly, but I think it was when Ferrari launched the F512M to replace the 512TR. The pop-up headlights were gone and had been replaced with what we'd now call regular headlights underneath a clear cover. Clarkson, on Top Gear, complained about this, claiming it was an important feature of the legendary Testarossa design, and said that he'd asked the guys at Ferrari why they'd done it. Their response was that, apparently (and quite understandably) the pop-ups destroyed the aerodynamics of the car when traveling at speeds of above 150 mph.
"Stupid reasoning. You should never be driving 150 mph at night." said Clarkson.
WARNING - This post contains a funny comment by Jeremy Clarkson - WARNING
Quote from: Otto Puzzell on October 30, 2008, 03:08:32 AM
Hmmm...time to change my name again?
D'OH! Old habits die hard. Original post corrected, OP! :)
Quote from: Ray B. on October 30, 2008, 07:00:56 AM
I read Otto's article a year ago when I was beginning to explore Autopuzzles.com and I thought it was great stuff, the kind that I would have liked to read more often in car magazines. The kind that I would have liked to write myself if I had more time and my English was more fluent and reliable.
Quote from: Allemano on October 30, 2008, 07:10:35 AM
My English is even worse. That's the main reason why I'm not confident enough to set up more articles. Lot's of technical terms are required to avoid any misunderstanding. I'm afraid that's far beyond my abilities.
Gentlemen, don't let language barriers stop you. If you craft something to the best of your ability Otto, Porridgehead and I will help you edit and finish it to a standard that will make you proud. We would all benefit from such an effort and I would be proud to help anyone who needed it in any manner I could.
:nod:
Quote from: Stephen M on October 30, 2008, 10:04:34 AM
Quote from: Otto Puzzell on October 30, 2008, 03:08:32 AM
Hmmm...time to change my name again?
D'OH! Old habits die hard. Original post corrected, OP! :)
No, you're fine. What I ment was, if people we compelled to seek out KU, by virtue of that link, they might search for some newer posts, and think him gone.
Quote from: porridgehead on February 20, 2007, 05:33:37 PM
Is that a Chapron Coupe?
Yes, it is a Chapron, indeed. A 1959 DS19 Coupé 'le Paris'. During 1959-1960 nine of thee were built, the earliest ones had the standard (covered) rear fender and no vertical chrome strip.
Quote from: @re on October 30, 2008, 07:29:18 AM
WARNING - This post contains a funny comment by Jeremy Clarkson - WARNING
I hadn't read this one, actually. Thought I'd just leave a comment on the pop-up headlights, as I have owned two cars with that exact feature. I'm not sure that I remember this correctly, but I think it was when Ferrari launched the F512M to replace the 512TR. The pop-up headlights were gone and had been replaced with what we'd now call regular headlights underneath a clear cover. Clarkson, on Top Gear, complained about this, claiming it was an important feature of the legendary Testarossa design, and said that he'd asked the guys at Ferrari why they'd done it. Their response was that, apparently (and quite understandably) the pop-ups destroyed the aerodynamics of the car when traveling at speeds of above 150 mph.
"Stupid reasoning. You should never be driving 150 mph at night." said Clarkson.
WARNING - This post contains a funny comment by Jeremy Clarkson - WARNING
Late to the party on this one....
Miata content here, as I owned two for 13 years. The first gen. had pop up headlights, huge in proportion to the rest of the front end when in the "up" position. They could be raised without having the lights on. With the lights raised, a significant change in aero could be felt. Lights up, but off (as in not having output) I found worked best in two circumstances, 1) when autocrossing, raising the lights opened up a slit below the headlight which lead to the air-intake, and helped somewhat horsepower and once on grid, an outlet for underhood temp. 2) With the top down, raising the headlights reduced the back-draft of air as it passed over the windshield header. The reduced wind buffeting was very noticable.
Ugly pop- up headlamps... Porsche 928, anyone? ;D
Another design first comes to mind. Cizeta Moroder. As far as I know the first and last supercar with four pop- up lights.
I vaguely recall a 'dream car' from some years ago which also featured 'pop-out' headlights. In other words, when deployed, they expanded out from the side of the front fenders. Anyone else remember that one?
Do you mean Exner's Mercer?
That's the one!
Thanks :)
Closed...
(http://www.autopuzzles.com/merclos.jpg)
Open...
(http://www.autopuzzles.com/meropen.jpg)
Talking about aerodynamic models, here it is "Persu Automobile", built between 1922 and 1924 by Aurel Persu (see Wikipedia). He did this work of its personal money, switching between more workshops. Parameters of the vehicle: aerodinamic coefficient 0,22, speed 60-80km/h!
Amazing, and not unknown to Autopuzzles.com, of course.
http://www.autopuzzles.com/forum/index.php?topic=4068.0
You know, I have read both pro's and con's regarding pop up headlights.
It seems that when a designer breaks the molds from (then) designing thoughts, he is often criticized after the fact, this is for any automotive inovations.
Yes, the drag on a vehicle with pop up headlights is quite extensive, But, we loose the fact of their major benefit for less drag in wind tunnel tests.
Plus;
Lest we forget that the basic designs of pop up headlights are what gave us plastic aero type headlamp benefits without being "popped up".
All great idea's/designs start and then are usually improved upon as evidenced by our own automobile history in design.
I am kind of confused on Buerhigs pop up headlights, weren't they first drawn & patented as being on the side of the fenders, and not in a smooth front fender style?
Maybe he and others were in the early stages until somebody figured out that they needed to flow in design with the cars front body / nose structure and design?
There have been many street cars built in the past bringing forth aero, tear drop and streamlined designs from the late 1800's on.
It seems that they all became more refined in design as each copied others thoughts in design for a efficient clean air/less drag design.
I often wonder which early designed and built street car really holds the title for being the best in wind tunnel testing?
John
when we built the coNZept we had headlights behind clear plastic and as we had no space for indicators we shone an orange bulb into the head light reflector.
the result was spectacular as even at night the whole headlight would change from white to orange and at day light it flashed orange.
when in traffic the indication in the front of the vehicle is more important than from the rear where you are following the car.
when a car is turning and approaching you really need to know positivley that they are turning.
modern cars have nearly got it but not quite yet with the indicators facing forward in the head light cowl.(not back to the headlight reflector)
Quote from: motorcar1 on May 16, 2009, 10:00:15 AM
I am kind of confused on Buerhigs pop up headlights, weren't they first drawn & patented as being on the side of the fenders, and not in a smooth front fender style?
I recall reading that somewhere, as well.
Otto Puzzle,
I have been heavily involved in the Tucker Conv at the Tucker club forums, we were the others. as mentioned, and John from Nebo in the ESPN talks, newspapers and in other commentaries, we were the ones originally purchasing the infamous Tucker Convertible.
We picked up our marbles and walked after several hundred hours of research !!!!
I am not new to differences and thoughts of who did what and when, I learned a lot..
A person on the Tucker site brought forth info about Gordon Buehrigs design of the pop open headlamps.
I am still researching the facts, it may be though, as we mentioned above, that Gordon changed his headlights in his patented design to what Bens styling was on the Harris car. Others agree that the patents are not what was the final product appeared as in Gordon's creation.
We shall see what else surfaces.
The reason it even came up on the Tucker site; Seems Alex Tremulis may have borrowed some of Bens ideas in some of his later famous designs,
A very beautiful car, Alex designed, was going to auction, it was posted on the site, other designs of his were also shown, thats when the comparisons showed up.
You must realize that Alex was a mere 19-20 years old when he was affilated with Gordon at ACD, this all occured when Ben was creating his car and Cord himself was pictured with it in a magazine in a finished state.
Go figure, huh >>>.
I do not say Futuristic car, as I have never been able to get true definitions to write or describe the car in detail for histories sake.
What is it Otto Puzzell , how do you write about it, futuristic, custom, concept, streamliner or all combined ?
Is there a singular car, built back then, that innovated so much into one design, and then carried over to modern day in various fashions, size, weights, engine, simplified fwd, aero dynamics etc?
How do you write about Ben?
The people he ran with?
How do you write about Biggs and how the Harris even got there?
How do you write about it gracing the front cover of the NY International Shows brochure> beating all manufactures for that prestigous right?
I marvel, to this day, at how he flat broke away from everybodies thoughts, how he combined innovations>old and new> and then set out to create a new design and car in almost all fashion, all wrapped up into one astounding car, > 74 years ago.
Did he unknowingly create what was to come and did it happen, how do you write about it without seemingly being arogant ??????
Is there another car in the History books, that brought soooooo much forward at one time, how in the hell do you write about it ??????
Is it best as a book, we so much desire to have the "complete" story told for Ben.
I am supposed to be sending an article on Bens car to Road and Track magazine and others as well as" here".
I made contact with the main person, very nice gentleman, from Road and track.
He is fascinated with the car and even more astounded that the magazine covered it in 4 pages in 1953, roughly 3 months after Road and Track went public.
Fifty six years later, it will return to grace their pages as well as here.
Ironically, a retro article, something seldom done, appeared in my new Road and Track magazine I received today, it's an article and photos of the 1938 Audi race car next to the agressive new Audi..
Do truly appreciate your comments as well as others and I desire to learn and research more so I can truly finish my work on this very special car, 22 years of research is enough. Today I finally got to the person that controls much of the archive records of the SCCA.
As I think I mentioned, Ben hosted and started SCCA racing in Illinois, just think, the wacky arnolt bristols and more racing at his events, his ties are astonishing, even sat for dinner with Roosevelt. Hopefully the archives will give me and document what I need to finish another chapter for Ben and his car.
The caretaker of Bens creation,
What a nightmare
John
Quote from: motorcar1 on July 08, 2009, 12:33:18 AM
The caretaker of Bens creation,
What a nightmare
John
Many would love to be part of that nightmare, if time and logistics allowed. You have a unique perspective on this interesting subject, and can't wait to read more.
Otto Puzzell,
Thanks for wishing to read more.
I have a question to for any Auto Puzzler's.
Bens son moved to California, Ben moved their in his later years.
Is there anyone from California that might help me out with an interview with Ben's sons wife, Mrs Harris.
She is elderely but said she had papers, articles, letters, painting of the car, an auto design of Bens signed by Roosevelt to keep up his designing, SCCA, Buerhig and more.
Could be some real interesting reading and stories of many known people from Bens life that turn up also.
Second,
I ran down Mrs Buerhig,
Gordons daughter, in NY, has most of Gordons effects now.
Would be most interesting, pictures, letters etcetera, Ben was Gordons best man at his wedding and they were friends until their deaths remember. Who knows who else might turn up in the pictures are other papers and letters.
Anyone from the NY area that may be interested in interviewing her.
I do hope that both are alive and well, it has been 4 years since I spoke with them.
John
I believe we have some members in California - we'll reach out to the folks here.
To move the subject slightly to quad headlights; you say they appeared first in the 1950s, and I have a book which speicifically states that they first appeared on one of the the Dodge Firearrows in 1954.
Well I have a picture (below) of a 1949 Alfa Romeo 2500C with very modern-looking quad headlights, which I assume it had from new.
So they may well have appeared first in the 1950s in the USA but they appeared in the 1940s already in Europe!
This car is an Alfa Romeo 6C 2500 SS Spider by Pininfarina from 1948!
'One of Pinifarina's masterpieces. Round perfectly matching shapes. A derivation of the 1938 Aprilia and a forerunner of the 1951 Nash Healey. Front with paired headlights and upper vizor. Very smart flat raked rear. One-off model.'
...Here should be the pic....
I'll upload when able (but it's the spider version of the one above)
(BTW the one above is a AR 6C 2500 S Berlinetta from 1951, first owner Mr. Musumeci. There is also another 6C 2500 SS Cabriolet Speciale, from 1950, built for the Aga Khan.)
Quote from: Carnut on August 04, 2009, 11:33:08 AM
To move the subject slightly to quad headlights; you say they appeared first in the 1950s, and I have a book which speicifically states that they first appeared on one of the the Dodge Firearrows in 1954.
Well I have a picture (below) of a 1949 Alfa Romeo 2500C with very modern-looking quad headlights, which I assume it had from new.
So they may well have appeared first in the 1950s in the USA but they appeared in the 1940s already in Europe!
Yes, yes, Europe - second only to Mother Russia in inventing everything. Pierce-Arrow sold four-headlight cars in the in 1930's. I am not an automotive historian by trade, nor do I have an extensive library of books and magazines about one-off's, coachbuilt whatzits, etc.
The point of quad-headlights item related to production automobiles that went against laws then-prevalent in most US states against quad headlights. In 1940, a consortium of state motor vehicle administrators standardized upon a system of two 7 in (178 mm) round sealed beam headlamps on all vehicles — the only system allowed for 17 years. Ostensibly, this made sure that a motorist could buy a replacement headlight any any filling station or repair shop. Customs and showcars were frequently rolled out in the 50's that had this "new" feature, but dowdy old AMC added them as eye-candy to it's soon-to-be retired Nash. That year, Chrysler and Cadillac added them to some models, as well. Was anybody buying quad headlight Alfa's in the US back then? Doubtful, as they likely rusted to bits on the trip across the salty Atlantic, leaving the hapless buyer with a pile of iron oxide and a bill of sale.
Now, let's see who will post a picture of 1899 Daimler with four gas lamps...
Don't think anyone was buying Alfas with quad lamps anywhere in the 1950s because they didn't make any! They seem, as you say, to have been confined to concept cars and one-offs (incl the Pininfarina-bodied Alfa I showed the picture of) . Don't think any Alfas had 4 headlamps until the Giulias of the mid 1960s.
I do recall though seeing an American bus in an old B&W film from the 1940s with 4 headlights..
Having 4 headlights though is not quite the same thing as the quad headlight set-up with them grouped in 2 pairs, and don't think there was anything quite like that before WW2. Or maybe the Russians had a car with them...
Quote from: Otto Puzzell on August 05, 2009, 04:48:44 AM
... as they likely rusted to bits on the trip across the salty Atlantic, leaving the hapless buyer with a pile of iron oxide and a bill of sale...
That was a below the belt comment, Otto, but with some truth in it nevertheless.
Italian steel in the postwar years has a reputation of poor quality, and well into the seventies. The collectors of Peugeot 504 coupes by Pininfarina will testify that they keep fixing holes in them.
Uncle Martin's metamorphosis continues. His head is growing larger, and changing colors!
Porridgehead is the second best automotive commentator in the world ! @##$ :lmao:
Just thinking out loud here.
Why do a lot of "automotive writers" talk about that all identity of cars have gone, because of the aerodynamic designs of the late 80's and 90's (most books I have don't seem to go into the 00's), but forget that we have seen copying of style in all kinds of products for and since then. Probably this is due to a lot of the writers of those books being born just after the war, whereas I am born in the eighties and have no feelings of nostalgia towards 50's cars when compared to those of the 90's.
Just to name a very early example where you could see copying of design in cars: A lot of the cars of the 1900's seem to have a bonnet which is sloping on all sides, like this one:
(http://fotos0.mundofotos.net/2009/15_04_2009/infotaxi1239826369/taxi-renault-de-la-marne-1905-1910.jpg).
It's not just linked to French cars:
Though this Daimler has one too...
(http://www.svvs.org/genpics8/1899_Daimler_Tonneau.jpg)
And this American car too...
(http://www.earlyamericanautomobiles.com/images/autos3516.jpg)
There were tons of cars that´ve used this kind of front end type in the first decade if the20th century.
Here´s another example of very early limousine style aerodynamics.
It´a 1913 scan from my collection:
Quote from: Ray B. on October 30, 2008, 07:00:56 AM
I read Otto's article a year ago when I was beginning to explore Autopuzzles.com and I thought it was great stuff, the kind that I would have liked to read more often in car magazines. The kind that I would have liked to write myself if I had more time and my English was more fluent and reliable.
In the meantime, here is a link to a french website with no less than 132 pages about ressemblances (not all them unvolontary by far) in automobile design. Maybe you knew it, maybe you didn't. If you don't speak french, just look at the pretty pictures.
Quite interesting.
http://leroux.andre.free.fr/simi.htm
Of course this may be revealing a source, but sometimes sharing is worthwile.
Late to the party/new guy's take on the "Pairings".
Please no offence to you Ray, but I find this list sophmoric at best and seems to prove limited automotive knowlage to the author.
A '56 DeSoto being the best comparison to a '60s Volvo 122 Amazon? The BMC shares the headlight area with the Ferrari Daytona and that's about it. And Austin Healey and an early Datsun Fairlady? Ummm...no! :) On the Daimler Empress and the Bentley Lanchaster. Aren't they comparing two cars built by Hooper? Of course they look alike!
Anyway, I did find a few comparisons to be somewhat interesting, and I do thank you for posting the list. Just my opinion from my personal perspective! Here's a pic of me for you to mull over! :ranton:
Styling firsts.
We have not gone in-depth here. That is by no means a critique on anybody.
I think we can ask ourselves many questions on styling firsts.
The "ponton"-styling, for example.
The first car with a sun roof.
The first car with a raked windscreen.
The first use of a spoiler on a production car.
To name a few.
QuoteThe first use of a spoiler on a production car.
The first thing that comes to my mind is the 1953 aftermarket "Tiefensteuer" for the Split-Beetle by KAMEI:
What I´d like to see is an earlier example of modern type aluminium mags:
Quote from: Vincent Vell Vet on February 19, 2011, 04:55:50 PM
Quote from: Ray B. on October 30, 2008, 07:00:56 AM
I read Otto's article a year ago when I was beginning to explore Autopuzzles.com and I thought it was great stuff, the kind that I would have liked to read more often in car magazines. The kind that I would have liked to write myself if I had more time and my English was more fluent and reliable.
In the meantime, here is a link to a french website with no less than 132 pages about ressemblances (not all them unvolontary by far) in automobile design. Maybe you knew it, maybe you didn't. If you don't speak french, just look at the pretty pictures.
Quite interesting.
http://leroux.andre.free.fr/simi.htm
Of course this may be revealing a source, but sometimes sharing is worthwile.
Late to the party/new guy's take on the "Pairings".
Please no offence to you Ray, but I find this list sophmoric at best and seems to prove limited automotive knowlage to the author.
A '56 DeSoto being the best comparison to a '60s Volvo 122 Amazon? The BMC shares the headlight area with the Ferrari Daytona and that's about it. And Austin Healey and an early Datsun Fairlady? Ummm...no! :) On the Daimler Empress and the Bentley Lanchaster. Aren't they comparing two cars built by Hooper? Of course they look alike!
Anyway, I did find a few comparisons to be somewhat interesting, and I do thank you for posting the list. Just my opinion from my personal perspective! Here's a pic of me for you to mull over! :ranton:
No offence taken, Vincent. I didn't endorse this website, you know.
Quote from: Vincent Vell Vet on February 19, 2011, 04:55:50 PM
And Austin Healey and an early Datsun Fairlady? Ummm...no! :)
Hey, wait a minute - they both were available with two-tone paint!
My favorite "well, duh" pairing is Subaru Impreza and the Saab 9-2
Quote from: Otto Puzzell on February 20, 2011, 05:34:12 AM
My favorite "well, duh" pairing is Subaru Impreza and the Saab 9-2
Having owned Subarus for 12 years and never having heard of the SAAB 9-2 I Googled the latter and see it was more or less a Subaru Impreza Wagon with a SAAB front and badges and 140kg extra empty weight. Therefore it would look quite similar, I'd say.
We never had that one here in the UK for some reason, and now the General has sold SAAB on, I expect that's that.
Quote from: Allan L on February 20, 2011, 11:30:46 AM
Quote from: Otto Puzzell on February 20, 2011, 05:34:12 AM
My favorite "well, duh" pairing is Subaru Impreza and the Saab 9-2
Having owned Subarus for 12 years and never having heard of the SAAB 9-2 I Googled the latter and see it was more or less a Subaru Impreza Wagon with a SAAB front and badges and 140kg extra empty weight. Therefore it would look quite similar, I'd say.
We never had that one here in the UK for some reason, and now the General has sold SAAB on, I expect that's that.
It's a Saabaru!
Some Saabs were sold as re-badged Subarus in some markets weren't they?
They were in the US (and probably Canada - not sure).
Probably this was the very first retractable hardtop car:
a potential puzzle? I know the details - do you?
WoW!
O.K. I´ll convert this photo into a new rookie puzzle ;)
Quote from: Allan L on February 20, 2011, 11:30:46 AM
Having owned Subarus for 12 years and never having heard of the SAAB 9-2 I Googled the latter and see it was more or less a Subaru Impreza Wagon with a SAAB front and badges and 140kg extra empty weight. Therefore it would look quite similar, I'd say.
We never had that one here in the UK for some reason, and now the General has sold SAAB on, I expect that's that.
There was a brief window during one of GM's generous employee pricing/cash back offers when you could buy a 9-2x Aero with a supposedly nicer interior and more "upscale" nameplate than the WRX it was based on, for a few thousand LESS than the WRX. Not sure the situation thrilled Subaru dealers.
Don't forget Stephen, that offer was not for everybody. Although not happy, the effect should be relatively marginal.
Especially considering I would take the original over the "upscale" name.
Quote from: DeAutogids on March 31, 2011, 05:17:10 PM
Don't forget Stephen, that offer was not for everybody. Although not happy, the effect should be relatively marginal.
Especially considering I would take the original over the "upscale" name.
Even if resale was significantly better for the upscale name? Me, I buy the one that holds its value best.
Quote from: Ultra on March 31, 2011, 10:25:24 PM
Quote from: DeAutogids on March 31, 2011, 05:17:10 PM
Don't forget Stephen, that offer was not for everybody. Although not happy, the effect should be relatively marginal.
Especially considering I would take the original over the "upscale" name.
Even if resale was significantly better for the upscale name? Me, I buy the one that holds its value best.
I doubt that the resale value would be higher. Maybe in the US it will. In Europe many people have talked about SAAB being a to expensive Opel.
Quote from: DeAutogids on March 31, 2011, 05:17:10 PM
Don't forget Stephen, that offer was not for everybody. Although not happy, the effect should be relatively marginal.
Especially considering I would take the original over the "upscale" name.
GM did extend employee pricing to everyone (that is, non-employees) a few times pre-bankruptcy. Or at least, they did in the US. But you're right, it was only for a few months IIRC and I suspect didn't change the big picture.
Quote from: Ultra on March 31, 2011, 10:25:24 PM
Even if resale was significantly better for the upscale name? Me, I buy the one that holds its value best.
Out of morbid curiosity, I checked the NADA resale on a 2006 WRX & 9-2x aero with 50k miles. The WRX is worth $2,300 MORE. Surprising to me at least...I guess the US market depreciates Euro nameplates faster than Japanese nameplates, even when based on identical mechanicals? Or perhaps the uncertainty of Saabs future is weighing down prices. ???
I like that kind of curiosity.
Any 'wedge' before the Bertone Carabo or -conteporary- Lotus type 56?
thanks.
Re the Citroën DS/ID - I well remember my first sight of these t the Scottish Motor Show in the Kelvin Hall Glasgow in November 1959. Think of what we had around at that time - Moggie 1000s, Austin A40s, Ford Anglia and Classic etc and imagine the effect of seeing these things in the metal. You could hardly get near the Citroën dealer stand for the crowd (Scottish show always was a dealer based show, albeit with heavy manufacturer support). I eventually managed to get inside the DS and was astounded by the soft comfort of the seats and the sheer spaciousness of the airy interior. Even as a 9 year old lad I knew this was something special, and it still is!
The first turnable headlight I´ve found are those on a 1903 Cudell car from Aachen/Germany:
Who was the first to show this dramatic design?
A (still) unknown coachbuilder on a Topolino in 1952,
The so called "Tom Mix's Duesenberg", late 40s early 50s
Moskvich-CA early 60s
Manta Ray, 1953?
Do you know more?
(not like the all the GM Sabre's clones, but with this round shaped nose)
This bullet nose was a common feature of several french trucks between 1905 and 1918.
Of course the did not feature a closed ponton style body:
Thanks to Stanislav for reminding me of the Zis 112 from 1951.
Here you are the 3 versions of it. (pics from Kustorama)
Just sayin...
;D
Prehistoric dagmars. with a more recent copy in the background.
I think I found the very first front spoiler on a 1906 Mercedes racecar:
The first dragster :)
First wing car :)