Author Topic: Universal body style directory  (Read 10797 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2012, 04:11:53 PM »
COUPE DE VILLE - Italy (Lancia, Fiat) - prewar - Luxury body with the passenger seats covered by a fixed top and the driver place open... chaffeur's life wasn't easy... ;)

USA: Town Car or Open Drive Limousine...or All-Weather Town Car (also Transformable Town Cabriolet...mostly Cadillac) if there was a removable cover for the chauffeur's compartment.


« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 04:15:21 PM by RayTheRat »

RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2012, 04:24:15 PM »
Here's a good reference to some USA body styles, in particular, those offered by Packard, separated by model year:
http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/modelinfo/

Sometimes this is confusing, tho.  For example, Touring and Phaeton seem to be used interchangeably, but have different model numbers.  In addition, Dual-Cowl phaeton models aren't differentiated from single windshield models.

For what it's worth.

r



RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2012, 03:02:14 PM »
Fiat Coupe-Spider (I)  ???

This one  IS confusing.  :)  But I suppose it's not much different from the designation given to pillarless sedans in the US starting around 1949.  They were initially called "hardtop convertibles" or vice-versa.  A side note from my misspent college years: I remember reading in a marketing class that at that time, a study showed that men viewed women driving convertibles as potential prostitutes.  This prevented many of them from buying a convertible for their wives.  So the concept of a car that had the style of a convertible but without the stigma of said "prostitute image" led designers to create what we came to call "hardtops", differentiated from "sedans" by the lack of B pillars.  I grew up with the concept of the hardtop model being the most desirable and still feel that way.

Btw, do you have years of manufacture for your examples?  I suppose it's a picky little thing, but my reference photos are sorted by year.

For example, I found the photo of the Coupe-Spider on Wikipedia.  It's a 1928 model, or so the article says.  So I renamed the image to: 1928 Fiat 521 C Coupe-Spider 01 01.jpg.  The numbers are my own shorthand for instance and sequence.  Too many years working with computer databases, I suppose.  :)

Thanks for your help,

r

RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2012, 04:31:13 PM »
I've taken a shot at consolidating some of these definitions and made some small format changes, such as using 2-character code for country ID, adding sections for pre-1919 and 1919-1941 and attempting to add some definitions for some early body styles (generally derived from horse-drawn carriages.)

This is just an attempt on my part to consolidate.  Feel free to add, change, mutilate or whatever.  Side note: I wrote this up in Open Office (M$ Word alternative) and its formatting codes don't get translate back into ubb code.  If it's decided that it's a good idea to keep this in such a format, I'll put it on a web server somewhere (I maintain numerous websites.) 


Main section, 1946-current

BERLINA:
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 4 seaters or more, 2 or 4 doors (but also 5 with the back door), 4-windows.
a.k.a. :        (DE)  Limousine
                  (FR) Berline
                  (UK) Saloon
                  (US) Sedan

Variations: 
                  (UK) Pillarless Saloon
                  (US) Hardtop Sedan 2 or 4 doors without "B" pillars or window surrounds.

                  (US) 1950s/60s usage : "post", same as a "sedan" as opposed to a "hardtop" with "B" pillars.


FAMILIARE - GIARDINETTA:
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 4 seaters or more, back seats may be folded or removed to improve luggage room, 2 or 4 doors (but also 5 with the back door), 4-windows or more.  
a.k.a. :        (DE) Familcar/Kombiwagen/Kombi
                  (FR) Break
                  (UK) Estate car/Estate/Brake/Shooting Brake
                  (US) Station Wagon


LIMOUSINE
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 4 seaters or more, with the option of 2 or more additional seats (in italian 'strapuntini', something like the dickey (or "jump") seats) between the front and the rear seats, 4 or 6 doors, 4-windows or more.  Aka Cabriolet Royale.

Variations:
                  (FR and others) Coupe de Ville  Open chauffeur's compartment
                  (US) Town Brougham, Transformable Town Cabriolet 

COUPE' (coupe)
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 2 seaters or more (with foldable front seats in case of more than 2), 2 doors, 2 or 4 windows.
                  (US) 1940s/50s usage:
                  Business coupe: no rear seat (space for salesmen's products/catalogs.)
                  Club coupe: This definition varies with manufacturer and model.  Some close-coupled coupes with a small rear seat were called club coupes (equivalent to a 2+2 arrangement), other manufacturers used the term to describe a larger rear seating area

CABRIOLET
Closed bodywork opened by a foldable capote which can be supported on the body or rolled up, 2 seaters or more, 2 or 4 doors, 2 or more windows. When the seaters are 2 it is often called SPIDER
a.k.a. :        (DE) Kabriolett/Cabriolet
                  (FR) Cabriolet/Decapotable
                  (UK) Drophead Coupe
                  (US) Convertible Coupe (defined by roll-up windows.)  2 doors. 

TORPEDO
                  (DE)  ??
                  (FR)  ??
                  (UK) Tourer
                  (US) Touring car (US) Open 4 to 7 seater, sometimes called "phaeton" .

SPIDER
Closed bodywork opened by a capote and hardtop, the foldable capote can be supported on the body or rolled up, 2 seaters or more, 2 doors, 2 windows.
Usually a 2-seater CABRIOLET is called Spider.
a.k.a. : (US) runabout/roadster   (side curtains instead of glass windows.)

BERLINA DECAPPOTTABILE
Closed and open bodywork, fixed b-pillar, the foldable capote can be supported on the body or rolled up, 4 seaters or more, 2 or 4 doors, 2 or more windows
          (UK): 3-position drophead coupe.

LANDAULET
Closed and open bodywork with a fixed top over the front seats. The foldable capote over the back seats can be supported on the body or rolled up, 5 seaters or more with the option of 2 or more additional seats (in italian 'strapuntini', something like the dickey seats) between the front and the rear seats, 4 or 6 doors, 4 or more windows. This bodywork is generally used in executive cars


Additional sections:

Pre 1919

Dos-a-Dos: 4-6 seater, seats back to back
Vis-a-Vis: 4-6 seater, seats facing one another
Mylord: Similar to cabriolet
Duc: A cross between a Phaeton and a Victoria.
Tonneau: Open 4-seater.
Roi-des-Belges: A double phaeton with exaggerated bulges suggestive of a tulip.
Stanhope: Light car with single bench seat mounted at the center, folding cloth top, and a dashboard at the front; tiller steering.

1919-1941

COUPE' (coupe)
                   (US): the number of windows (not counting the windshield) described the style: 3-window (no rear quarter window) or 5-window (small quarter window) most common.  Generally 2-seaters.
                   Opera coupe.  Similar to Club coupe or Victoria with a rear seating area sized between a sedan and a 2-seat coupe.
                  Sport Coupe:  30s usage, particularly Ford: 2-seater with faux cabriolet top and landau irons.  Other usage at the whim of the manufacturer.
30s/40s usage: Convertible Sedan: 4 doors.

RUMBLE SEAT ROADSTER
          (US): roadster with a 2nd, smaller seat located where a trunk or boot would normally be.  Sometimes known as "mother-in-law" seat.


Offline Paul Jaray

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 21892
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 2053
  • MVP
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2012, 04:51:09 PM »
Wow...it's going fast!

RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2012, 05:06:11 PM »
Feel free to modify as needed.  If I think of something else, I'll add it, too.

RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2012, 01:08:44 AM »
I've come to realize that the country codes I used are not the same as Georgano uses.  (I didn't have his "Encyclopedia" when I wrote up what I did.) 

Would it be helpful if I changed things to bring them into line with his book?  And while I'm at it, maybe restructure it into sections, such as these?

 Veteran/Antique/Brass and Edwardian Era 1894-1916
   Vintage/Pre-War  1922-1942
   Classic Era  1946-1970
   Muscle Car Era  1964-1972 (A little overlap there...I'd probably skip this one altogether)
   Modern Era  1971-present

Opinions?

RtR

Offline Paul Jaray

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 21892
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 2053
  • MVP
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2012, 03:00:36 AM »
I'm glad you are keeping this alive, I have limited time.
I think it's a good idea to divide the definitions according to the era...I'll add the 'current era', where we can add all the funny names the marketing gurus are inventing these latest years...just think at all the different ways there are to define a 'station wagon' today!
About the 'Muscle Car Era', I don't think it can be applied worldwide. 

RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2012, 09:57:42 PM »
I'm glad you are keeping this alive, I have limited time.
I think it's a good idea to divide the definitions according to the era...I'll add the 'current era', where we can add all the funny names the marketing gurus are inventing these latest years...just think at all the different ways there are to define a 'station wagon' today!
About the 'Muscle Car Era', I don't think it can be applied worldwide. 

My time is becoming more limited as car show season is underway and I'm working on my race car, although it may have a year's delay.  I may end up installing a manual transmission in place of the automatic.  I haven't decided yet.

Current era and Modern era?  Are they the same?  The range of years for Modern era is pretty broad.  There are a couple of breaking points in the US that may or may not be valid.  First, emission controls became mandatory in all 50 states in 1968.  That and the 1974 Oil Embargo brought an end to the Muscle Car era, although I know it's not really applicable in Europe, Asia and South America (I think.)  Then there was another breaking point around 1980 when On-Board Diagnostics (OBD-1) implemented a whole lotta messy emissions control devices and then again around 1995 when OBD-2 was mandated. 

But those things are basically US and a lot of 'em are technical things that wouldn't have much to do with body styles.  Maybe "Modern Era" could end with 1999 or 2000 and "Current Era" could be "21st Century."  I'm just thinking out loud, here.  I'd sure welcome input from others.

What do you think of the idea of using the same country codes the Georgano uses?

Another thing.  The base language at the moment is Italian, since that was the way it was in the first draft.  Should we keep it this way or, since most of the posts made here are in English, use that language as a base.  Of course there's always the English English and American English thing...so again, I don't know.  Most people on this forum seem to be multi-lingual, so maybe it isn't an issue.

Anybody else with suggestions?

RtR

Offline Paul Jaray

  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 21892
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 2053
  • MVP
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2012, 03:13:17 AM »
About Modern Era, 1971-present:

I'm browsing the price list of an old issue (1973) of a magazine and there are:
berlina, coupe, giardiniera, familiare, spider, berlinetta, week end, break, estate car, pullman, cabriolet, stationcar, giardinetta, etc

Now a 1995 issue of the same magazine:
Sport Wagon, Volante, Avant, Touring, Coupe, Cabriolet, Convertible, Break, Berlinetta, Spider, Cabrio, Station Wagon, Tourer, Liftback, Touring Wagon, Compact Wagon, Variant, Berlina, etc

And finally a 2012 issue:
berlina, cabrio, station, crossover, and for each maker the respective names: avant, roadster, spider, touring, tourer, sportwagon, wagon, roadster-coupe, sport tourer, sports tourer, SW, CC, C-C, ST, etc...

If we try to define a body style via its shape, it's easy to put Station Wagon, Compact Wagon, Variant, Touring, Giardinetta, Familiare, Giardiniera, Estate car, Tourer, SW etc in the same list...but sometimes it can be tricky.

About the language, I just took an Italian encyclopedia as a start, but I think the official language should be English English.

Offline Otto Puzzell

  • Founder and
  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 31549
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 444
  • Open field, with a window.
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
    • AutoPuzzles
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2012, 05:54:31 AM »
I think it might be wise to separate-brand specific nomenclature. AMC's Hornet Sportabout, for instance, was a station wagon, in the normal american parlance. And Toyota's Celica Liftback was a hatchback.

Sportabout was, I think, unique to AMC, while other brands also used liftback (or-lift-back) to designate a hatchback configuration.
You wanna be the man, you gotta Name That Car!

RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2012, 05:58:12 AM »
Good point, Otto.  I'm mentally chewing on a schema that would fit all the previously listed requirements.  At least I don't have to normalize it according to the "Word of Codd."  Database people will get this...for others, let it go...it wasn't that funny.  :)

RtR

Offline Otto Puzzell

  • Founder and
  • Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 31549
  • Country: us
  • Puzzle Points 444
  • Open field, with a window.
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
    • AutoPuzzles
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2012, 06:01:07 AM »
I had to look it up - worth a chuckle :)
You wanna be the man, you gotta Name That Car!

RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2012, 06:05:40 AM »
Glad ya got a chuckle, but it can be an unreal pita to deal with.

RtR

Offline Iluvatar

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 2494
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 239
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
    • www.automobileitaliana.it
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2012, 07:10:22 AM »
Jaguar XK bodies: OTS (Open Two Seater) no roof at all = roadster, DHC (Drop Head Coupé) roof = spyder, FHC (Fixed Head Coupé) closed = coupé...
OTS (UK-50s-Jaguar) can be linked to Torpedino (IT-40s-Carrozzeria Touring) and Barchetta (IT-50s-Ferrari/Touring)
No roof at all, two seats... the main difference is that the Jaguar had a windshield...
L'Automobile Italiana automobileitaliana.it
Facebook automobileitaliana
Instagram @autoitaliana

Offline Iluvatar

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 2494
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 239
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
    • www.automobileitaliana.it
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2012, 07:25:39 AM »
A proposal for a general classification...
Roof: open/fixed
Seats: 2/2+2/4-6/>6
Doors: none/2/3/4/5/>5

Examples...
open roof, 2 seats, 2 doors - Spyder, Roadster
open roof, 4-6 seats, 2 doors - Cabriolet
open roof, 4-6 seats, 4 doors - Torpedo
fixed roof, 2 seats, 2 doors - Coupé
fixed roof, 2+2 seats, 2 doors - Coupé 2+2
fixed roof, 4-6 seat, 4 doors - Saloon, Sedan, Berlina, Limousine
fixed roof, 2/4-6 seats, 3 doors - Shooting Brake
fixed roof, 4-6 seats, 5 doors - Station Wagon
etc...
L'Automobile Italiana automobileitaliana.it
Facebook automobileitaliana
Instagram @autoitaliana

RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2012, 09:40:24 AM »
A proposal for a general classification...
Roof: open/fixed
Seats: 2/2+2/4-6/>6
Doors: none/2/3/4/5/>5

Examples...
open roof, 2 seats, 2 doors - Spyder, Roadster
open roof, 4-6 seats, 2 doors - Cabriolet
open roof, 4-6 seats, 4 doors - Torpedo
fixed roof, 2 seats, 2 doors - Coupé
fixed roof, 2+2 seats, 2 doors - Coupé 2+2
fixed roof, 4-6 seat, 4 doors - Saloon, Sedan, Berlina, Limousine
fixed roof, 2/4-6 seats, 3 doors - Shooting Brake
fixed roof, 4-6 seats, 5 doors - Station Wagon
etc...


I think this is a good start for basic classification.  I'm working on something that will cover the basics here.

I've also put some thought into time frames and come up with a generalized structure:
Veteran (1894-1916)
Classic (1917-1942)
Post-War (1946-1975)
Current (1976-present)

These "period" classification

I looked into AACA (Antique Automobile Club of America) show judging classes and I think it's WAY too granular for our use:

1.  Pre WWI-1918
2.  1919-1931
3.  1932-1948
4.  1949-1960
5.  1961-1970
6.  1971-1977
7.  1979-1987
8.  AACA Classic & Prestige
9.  American Sports Cars
10. British Sports Cars
11.  Other Sports Cars
12.  Commercial/Trucks (through 1987)
13.  Street Rods & Muscle Cars
14.  Special Interest

So, moving right along, I checked into the AACA OVERALL classifications and they're just as complex if not worse...over 50 classes and sub-classes:
http://local.aaca.org/zooland/2011_Judges_Guidelines.pdf

Then I checked the CCCA (Classic Car Club of America) and while they break things out into much broader classes, they only recognize specific vehicles.  But their "period classification" may be helpful:
1.  Veteran: 1890s
2.  Brass/Edwardian: 1900-1919
3.  Vintage: 1920-1929
4.  Pre-War: 1930-1939
5.  War Era:  1940-1949
6.  Post-War: 1950-1959
7.  Classic:  1960-1979
8.  Modern.  1980-1999
9.  Future Classic.  2000-present

I think this is still too granular (too many eras) but it's a step in the right direction.

Then I checked out AntiqueCar.com and they have a different period classification:

1.  Brass era:  1890-1918
2.  Antique:  before 1920
3.  Vintage Era: 1920-1930
(there's a gap in here.  I don't know how it's covered)
4.  Classic Era: 1946-1972
5.  The post '72 era is broken down by Hot Rods and Muscle Cars.

After looking into all these classification methodologies, I still like the one I proposed first.  I'll do an example in another post.

RtR

Offline Allan L

  • Feature Writer
  • *
  • Posts: 4444
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 400
  • Forum Host in Vintage!
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2012, 09:55:46 AM »
Hereabouts we use a combination of Veteran Car Club of GB (VCC) and Vintage Sports-Car Club (VSCC) competition eligibility definitions for some of our time categories:
1 Veteran pre-1905 (VCC)
2 Edwardian 1905-1918 (VCC)
2a Edwardian pre-1919 (VSCC)
3 Vintage pre-1931 (VSCC)
4 Post-Vintage Thorougbred (PVT) 1931-1940 but specified makes/models only (VSCC)

Note that there is no start date for Veteran(!) nor for VSCC Edwardian or Vintage - in the latter case that simply means that an older car can compete above its age class.
Post-war definitions are not my field - the term "Classic" is often used and seems to mean "an out of production car that I happen to own" ;D
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 09:58:07 AM by Allan L »
Opinionated but sometimes wrong

RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2012, 10:42:01 AM »
Using the proposed classification system, something like this could be done  These are just examples of a possible structure:

Veteran (1894-1916):
  Open cars
    2 seats, no doors:
      USA: Stanhope, Runabout
        Mercer: Raceabout  (manufacturer-specific)
      B: Runabout, OTS, Roadster (?)
      F: Duc, Cabriolet (?)
      D: Victoria, Zweisitzer
        Benz:  Velo
      I:  Runabout (?), Roadster (?)

    4 Seats 0-2 doors
      USA: Tonneau, Touring
      B: Tourer, Phaeton
      F: Vis-a-Vis, Dos-a-Dos, Roi des Belges
      D: Torpedo, Tonneau, Vis-a-Vis, Dos-a-Dos
      I: Torpedo, Vis-a-Vis, Dos-a-Dos, Cabriolet

  Closed cars
    2 Seats 2 Doors
      USA: Coupe
      B: Coupé
      F: Coupé, Conduite interieur (?)
      D: Coupé
      I:  Coupé, Berlinetta

    4 Seats 2-4 Doors
      USA: Sedan, Limousine, Landau, Coach, Brougham
      B: Saloon, Limousine, Landaulette
      F: Berline, Conduite interieur (?), Limousine, Landaulette, Brougham
      D: Landaulet,
      I:  Berlina,


  Trucks (?)
      USA:  Pickup
      B:  Lorry
      F:  ?
      D: LKW?
      I:  Camion, Camionette



If this works for people, then please add, change, delete...whatever.  Any input on his will be helpful.

RtR

RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2012, 10:57:14 AM »
Hereabouts we use a combination of Veteran Car Club of GB (VCC) and Vintage Sports-Car Club (VSCC) competition eligibility definitions for some of our time categories:
1 Veteran pre-1905 (VCC)
2 Edwardian 1905-1918 (VCC)
2a Edwardian pre-1919 (VSCC)
3 Vintage pre-1931 (VSCC)
4 Post-Vintage Thorougbred (PVT) 1931-1940 but specified makes/models only (VSCC)

Note that there is no start date for Veteran(!) nor for VSCC Edwardian or Vintage - in the latter case that simply means that an older car can compete above its age class.
Post-war definitions are not my field - the term "Classic" is often used and seems to mean "an out of production car that I happen to own" ;D

This set of categories seems to be open to interpretation by entrants and/or judges.  As you mention, "Classic" is pretty nebulous.  I used it mainly because it was used by a couple of sources I checked and it's convenient. 

The idea of certain makes (AACA and CCCA) in a given category works well for shows and judging, but not (imho) for defining body style categories.

The deeper I get into this, the muddier the waters get.  Do you think it's important to separate Veteran and Edwardian classes?  Maybe combining them as "Brass Era" would work, although I'm used to seeing "Veteran" used to cover the whole range of pre-WWI (more or less) vehicles. 

Another thing that could be done is to change "Classic" to "Vintage" as some entities and authors us that distinction: Veteran, Vintage, Post-war and then some arbitrary break point for "Modern" or "Current" or "Contemporary."  I'm hoping to make as few classification periods as possible while making the whole thing usable. 

Again, feedback, changes, whatever is requested and welcomed.

RtR

Offline Allan L

  • Feature Writer
  • *
  • Posts: 4444
  • Country: gb
  • Puzzle Points 400
  • Forum Host in Vintage!
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2012, 02:01:35 PM »
Hereabouts we use a combination of Veteran Car Club of GB (VCC) and Vintage Sports-Car Club (VSCC) competition eligibility definitions for some of our time categories:
1 Veteran pre-1905 (VCC)
2 Edwardian 1905-1918 (VCC)
2a Edwardian pre-1919 (VSCC)
3 Vintage pre-1931 (VSCC)
4 Post-Vintage Thorougbred (PVT) 1931-1940 but specified makes/models only (VSCC)

Note that there is no start date for Veteran(!) nor for VSCC Edwardian or Vintage - in the latter case that simply means that an older car can compete above its age class.
Post-war definitions are not my field - the term "Classic" is often used and seems to mean "an out of production car that I happen to own" ;D

This set of categories seems to be open to interpretation by entrants and/or judges.  As you mention, "Classic" is pretty nebulous.  I used it mainly because it was used by a couple of sources I checked and it's convenient. 

The idea of certain makes (AACA and CCCA) in a given category works well for shows and judging, but not (imho) for defining body style categories.

The deeper I get into this, the muddier the waters get.  Do you think it's important to separate Veteran and Edwardian classes?  Maybe combining them as "Brass Era" would work, although I'm used to seeing "Veteran" used to cover the whole range of pre-WWI (more or less) vehicles. 

Another thing that could be done is to change "Classic" to "Vintage" as some entities and authors us that distinction: Veteran, Vintage, Post-war and then some arbitrary break point for "Modern" or "Current" or "Contemporary."  I'm hoping to make as few classification periods as possible while making the whole thing usable. 

Again, feedback, changes, whatever is requested and welcomed.

RtR
Dear Mr Rat (or may I call you Ray ;D)

Here in Britain we have our reasons for two of the named periods which make us rather protective about their use.
The Veteran Car Club of GB was formed after the London to Brighton run in 1930 and as the cutoff date for that was and remains the end of 1904 that's why that Club and we here in general use Veteran for that period.
Similarly when the Vintage Sports-Car Club was founded in 1934 it was as a reaction to the "grey porridge" that was being mass-produced then and the founders regarded the period up to about three years before as Vintage (in the wine sense - they understood that sort of thing!).

Quite where the "Edwardian" name came from I don't know and it is only partly accurate as our King Edward VII died in May 1910 when only about a third of the Edwardian period (for cars) had passed and there would be a case for "Georgian" until you realise that would cover all the Vintage period as well as half the PVT! Apart from a 326 day gap it could be extended to 1953 . . .

As you've started to set out elsewhere the body styles' names change with period, though not in step with the period names of course. What seems to have happened a lot is the use of names untranslated from the language they were first used in - e.g. we had cars which were dos-a-dos not back-to-back (a term we also use in square dancing I believe). We also have coupés, possibly because the only word/phrase we have that means the same is "cut-down".
Then there is the continuing problem of our two great nations divided by a common language: I know enough to understand what a saloon is in the USofA so it's not suitable as a car body name but where did sedan come form? Sedan Chair I know of, but that's a bit unlikely and Sedan in France isn't renowned for its car industry.
Opinionated but sometimes wrong

Offline Iluvatar

  • Expert
  • *
  • Posts: 2494
  • Country: it
  • Puzzle Points 239
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
    • www.automobileitaliana.it
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2012, 03:37:05 PM »
I've also put some thought into time frames and come up with a generalized structure:
Veteran (1894-1916)
Classic (1917-1942)
Post-War (1946-1975)
Current (1976-present)
Talking about body style I think we can use a less specific year classification, like:
A - pre WWI
B - WWI > WWII
C - 40s > 60s
D - 70s > today
No years, but a generic identification for four "periods"...
L'Automobile Italiana automobileitaliana.it
Facebook automobileitaliana
Instagram @autoitaliana

Offline woodinsight

  • Professional
  • *
  • Posts: 13671
  • Country: fr
  • Puzzle Points 557
  • YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2012, 03:43:32 PM »
I've also put some thought into time frames and come up with a generalized structure:
Veteran (1894-1916)
Classic (1917-1942)
Post-War (1946-1975)
Current (1976-present)
Talking about body style I think we can use a less specific year classification, like:
A - pre WWI
B - WWI > WWII
C - 40s > 60s
D - 70s > today
No years, but a generic identification for four "periods"...
Yes, I'd generally agree with that...... with a few small reservations

RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2012, 03:51:36 PM »
I'll answer to just about anything, Allan...and I've been called a whole lot worse.   ;D

First.  Origins of "sedan."  I did a bit of digging and many sources state that the origin of the word is obscure when it comes to its use as a "sedan chair" or automobile body style.  I'm gonna have to argue with Wikipedia a bit because they state, "a sedan is always closed."  I guess no one told 'em about a convertible sedan...which is something of an oxymoron, but was used in the 30s and 40s pretty extensively.  This seems to be the best explanation of its etymology:

"1635, 'covered chair on poles,' possibly from a southern Italian dialect derivative of It. sede 'chair' (cf. It. seggietta, 1598; the thing itself was said to have been introduced from Naples), from L. sedes, related to sedere 'sit' (see sedentary). Since Johnson's conjecture, often derived from the town of Sedan in France, where it was said to have been made or first used, but historical evidence for this is lacking. Introduced in England by Sir Sanders Duncombe in 1634 and first called a covered chair."  I had plenty of experience with saloons, but let's just say that I don't do that anymore.  :)

Coupe or Coupé DOES originate from the past tense of the French verb, "couper" (to cut) so, yeah, it's a "sedan" with the rear seating portion cut off:

"1825–35;  < French coupé  (in defs. 1 and 2 short for carrosse coupé  cut (i.e., shortened) coach), past participle of couper to cut off"

Having given the term "Edwardian" some thought, it would be comprehensible to those in the UK, but much less so in the US and probably pretty close to meaningless to those in the far east and perhaps South American and Eastern Europe, although I'm sure members like Faksta understand it.  Given that premise, I'd suggest that a more "global" term be used.  I did more research and found that the VCC of the UK defines things exactly as you stated but in the same book where I found it states that the so-called "vintage era" begins in 1919; I take this to mean a return to motoring "normalcy" after WWI. 

If the term "Brass Era" was used instead of Veteran and/or Edwardian, it could cover that time span, but it wouldn't really be accurate, since brass fittings began to be replaced with painted or plating of other types somewhere between 1914 and 1916...and I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions to that statement.  So Brass Era wouldn't be my choice of verbiage.

Maybe the way to do it would be to use years only:

Pre-1919 which I don't like because it makes 1919 a questionable year, so I'd prefer 1885-1919, using the year of the first Benz car as the older boundary and 1919 to correspond with the end of WWI. 
Pre-1920 might be a better term.
1920-1942 as a "between the wars" era.
1946-1975 I suggest 1975 because it was the "beginning of the end" for US muscle cars following the Arab oil embargo.  I don't really know how this affected cars in Europe or other parts of the world, but it was a point of major changes in the US. 
1976-present.  This might be broken into two eras, 1976-1999 and 2000-present being "21st century" examples (I know...the century didn't actually start until 2001, but for the sake of round numbers.....)

If period names are discarded for the purpose of this "directory" then there's no ambiguity: either a car falls into a category or it doesn't.  WWII presents a small problem, but I suppose the "between the wars" era could be extended to 1945, especially if no period names were used.

Quick note.  In US square dancing, the term "Do-Si-Do" is derived from the Cajun patois and does indeed mean 2 by 2, same as the dos-a-dos, back-to-back seating arrangement, opposed to vis-a-vis, or face to face.

Again, comments, changes, opinions, suggestions are requested and welcomed.

RtR


RayTheRat

  • Guest
Re: Universal body style directory
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2012, 03:53:28 PM »
I've also put some thought into time frames and come up with a generalized structure:
Veteran (1894-1916)
Classic (1917-1942)
Post-War (1946-1975)
Current (1976-present)
Talking about body style I think we can use a less specific year classification, like:
A - pre WWI
B - WWI > WWII
C - 40s > 60s
D - 70s > today
No years, but a generic identification for four "periods"...

See the response I made while you and woodinsight were chiming in.  I think we may be heading in the same direction.

RtR