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AutoPuzzles Today => Features, Stories and Photos => Topic started by: Paul Jaray on March 23, 2012, 07:15:53 AM
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There seems to be a lot of confusion between the various names describing bodystiles.
The same car can be referred to as a Sedan, Saloon, Berlina, Berlinetta and so on.
We all have the general idea of the differences between a Spider and a Convertible (or Cabriolet?) but what about a Spyder? And the Speedster?
Each country has got a different spelling but sometimes each coachbuilder (or even an estabilished maker) can apply his idea.
I think Autopuzzles is the right place to try to compile a directory, given the fact that we have members from all over the world with a quite impressive knowledge.
We can also find out who was the first to use a name for a car and why.
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I will start with what I know about the Spider\Spyder.
each one of you can add his material about and at the end we can have our directory.
I will update this post after the material is ready.
I can anticipate that the term "Spider" derives from the 4-wheeled horsedrawn carriages that were similar to spiders when fitted with big wheels.
A Dubliner coachbuilder was the 1st to use the term Spyder.
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Great topic!!!
It would be nice to create a universal collection of name and definition... although it should be a giant work...
I think the first thing to do id to collect all the names we know... and then we can create a classification and a correct definition for each one... and don't forget the country! An Italian "limousine" is a little longer than a German one...
MPC
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A few pre-war Fiat bodies...
1 - Berlina (I)
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2 - Torpedo (I)
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3 - Cabriolet (I)
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4 - Coupe de Ville (I)
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Lancia Lambda:
Guida interna (I) (it's similar to a Berlina (I)) and Torpedo (I).
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More from Lancia...
Berlina (I) or Guida interna (I)
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Torpedo (I)
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Cabriolet (I) and Traformabile (I)
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Coupe de Ville (I)
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Fiat Cabriolet Royal (I)
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Fiat Landaulet (I)
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Fiat Coupe-Spider (I) ???
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Lancia Astura Coupe de Ville (I)
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Lancia Limousine-Landaulet (I) and Landaulet-Limousine (I)
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Good start!
I'll put here the definitions I found in old Italian encyclopedia:
BERLINA:
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 4 seaters or more, 2 or 4 doors (but also 5 with the back door), 4-windows.
a.k.a. : Limousine (Germany)
Berline (France)
Saloon (GB)
Sedan (USA)
FAMILIARE - GIARDINETTA:
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 4 seaters or more, back seats may be folded or removed to improve luggage room, 2 or 4 doors (but also 5 with the back door), 4-windows or more.
a.k.a. : Familcar/Kombiwagen/Kombi (Germany)
Break (France)
Estate car/Estate (GB)
Station Wagon (USA)
LIMOUSINE
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 4 seaters or more, with the option of 2 or more additional seats (in italian 'strapuntini', something like the dickey seats) between the front and the rear seats, 4 or 6 doors, 4-windows or more.
COUPE'
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 2 seaters or more (with foldable front seats in case of more than 2), 2 doors, 2 or 4 windows.
CABRIOLET
Closed bodywork opened by a foldable capote which can be supported on the body or rolled up, 2 seaters or more, 2 or 4 doors, 2 or more windows. When the seaters are 2 it is often called SPIDER
a.k.a. : Kabriolett (Germany)
Cabriolet/Decapotable (France)
Drophead Coupe (GB)
Convertible Coupe (USA)
SPIDER
Closed bodywork opened by a capote and hardtop, the foldable capote can be supported on the body or rolled up, 2 seaters or more, 2 doors, 2 windows.
Usually a 2-seater CABRIOLET is called Spider.
a.k.a. : runabout/roadster (USA)
BERLINA DECAPPOTTABILE
Closed and open bodywork, fixed b-pillar, the foldable capote can be supported on the body or rolled up, 4 seaters or more, 2 or 4 doors, 2 or more windows
LANDAULET
Closed and open bodywork with a fixed top over the front seats. the foldable capote over the back seats can be supported on the body or rolled up, 5 seaters or more with the option of 2 or more additional seats (in italian 'strapuntini', something like the dickey seats) between the front and the rear seats, 4 or 6 doors, 4 or more windows. This bodiwork is generally used in exexutive cars
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The same enciclopedia reports:
dos-a-dos
vis-a-vis
mylord
duc
tonneau
double phaeton
torpedo
coupe de ville
as bodyworks of the past.
I'll edit this post in the future.
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Since I'm the troublemaker who pestered Paul about this, I'll add a couple of comments to his already great start:
BERLINA:
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 4 seaters or more, 2 or 4 doors (but also 5 with the back door), 4-windows.
a.k.a. : Limousine (Germany)
Berline (France)
Saloon (GB)
Sedan (USA) Also 4-door hardtop (originally hardtop convertible, same as GB pillarless saloon.) 1950s/60s usage: "post." Post=pillar.
FAMILIARE - GIARDINETTA:
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 4 seaters or more, back seats may be folded or removed to improve luggage room, 2 or 4 doors (but also 5 with the back door), 4-windows or more.
a.k.a. : Familcar/Kombiwagen/Kombi (Germany)
Break (France)
Estate car/Estate (GB)
Station Wagon (USA)
LIMOUSINE
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 4 seaters or more, with the option of 2 or more additional seats (in italian 'strapuntini', something like the dickey seats) between the front and the rear seats, 4 or 6 doors, 4-windows or more. USA: seats dickey seats are sometimes called "jump seats", a reference to paratroopers' seats in aircraft.
COUPE'
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 2 seaters or more (with foldable front seats in case of more than 2), 2 doors, 2 or 4 windows.
USA: 1930s usage: the number of windows (not counting the windshield) described the style: 3-window (no rear quarter window) or 5-window (small quarter window) most common. Generally 2-seaters.
1940s/50s usage:
Business coupe: no rear seat (space for salesmen's products/catalogs.)
Club coupe: This definition varies with manufacturer and model. Some close-coupled coupes with a small rear seat were called club coupes (equivalent to a 2+2 arrangement), other manufacturers used the term to describe a larger rear seating area than a 2-seater coupe (equivalent to a 2-door sedan.)
Sport Coupe: 30s usage, particularly Model A Ford: 2-seater with faux cabriolet top. Other usage at the whim of the manufacturer.
CABRIOLET
Closed bodywork opened by a foldable capote which can be supported on the body or rolled up, 2 seaters or more, 2 or 4 doors, 2 or more windows. When the seaters are 2 it is often called SPIDER
a.k.a. : Kabriolett (Germany)
Cabriolet/Decapotable (France)
Drophead Coupe (GB)
Convertible Coupe (USA) (defined by roll-up windows.) 2 doors. 30s/40s usage: Convertible Sedan: 4 doors.
SPIDER
Closed bodywork opened by a capote and hardtop, the foldable capote can be supported on the body or rolled up, 2 seaters or more, 2 doors, 2 windows.
Usually a 2-seater CABRIOLET is called Spider.
a.k.a. : runabout/roadster (USA) (side curtains instead of glass windows.)
BERLINA DECAPPOTTABILE
Closed and open bodywork, fixed b-pillar, the foldable capote can be supported on the body or rolled up, 4 seaters or more, 2 or 4 doors, 2 or more windows
GB: 3-position drophead coupe.
LANDAULET
Closed and open bodywork with a fixed top over the front seats. The foldable capote over the back seats can be supported on the body or rolled up, 5 seaters or more with the option of 2 or more additional seats (in italian 'strapuntini', something like the dickey seats) between the front and the rear seats, 4 or 6 doors, 4 or more windows. This bodywork is generally used in executive cars
Some additions that might be incorporated into the main definitions
TOURER (touring car)
USA: open 4 to 7 seater, sometimes called "phaeton" . May be the same as Berlina decappotabile.
RUMBLE SEAT ROADSTER
USA: roadster with a 2nd, smaller seat located where a trunk or boot would normally be. Sometimes known as "mother-in-law" seat.
I gotta run, I'll add more when I can.
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I think it's important to classified the names by age too...
For sure we have to divide bodies before and after the Second World War... and maybe also before and after the First W.W...
And the problem is that every coachbuilders has a little different way to call his creations... and makes too...
...
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COUPE DE VILLE - Italy (Lancia, Fiat) - prewar - Luxury body with the passenger seats covered by a fixed top and the driver place open... chaffeur's life wasn't easy... ;)
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Fiat Cabriolet Royal (I)
Another one...
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Jaguar XK bodies: OTS (Open Two Seater) no roof at all = roadster, DHC (Drop Head Coupé) roof = spyder, FHC (Fixed Head Coupé) closed = coupé...
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Although Estate Car is the modern British term for a saloon with an elongated roof and interior space where the boot normally is, these cars were originally called a Shooting Brake, which was a conversion (usually wooden) of a saloon with the rear adapted to give the Gentleman space for all his hunting and shooting gear. I assume Estate Car is just a more modern term for a vehicle used for a similar purpose on the Gentleman's Estate, although of course the very word 'estate' has also come to mean something rather different these days and has little to do with gentlemen..
Note the spelling of 'Brake' - not 'Break' as in France. I believe a brake was some kind of horse-drawn trap, but I'd have to check exactly what.
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COUPE DE VILLE - Italy (Lancia, Fiat) - prewar - Luxury body with the passenger seats covered by a fixed top and the driver place open... chaffeur's life wasn't easy... ;)
USA: Town Car or Open Drive Limousine...or All-Weather Town Car (also Transformable Town Cabriolet...mostly Cadillac) if there was a removable cover for the chauffeur's compartment.
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Here's a good reference to some USA body styles, in particular, those offered by Packard, separated by model year:
http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/modelinfo/ (http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/modelinfo/)
Sometimes this is confusing, tho. For example, Touring and Phaeton seem to be used interchangeably, but have different model numbers. In addition, Dual-Cowl phaeton models aren't differentiated from single windshield models.
For what it's worth.
r
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Fiat Coupe-Spider (I) ???
This one IS confusing. :) But I suppose it's not much different from the designation given to pillarless sedans in the US starting around 1949. They were initially called "hardtop convertibles" or vice-versa. A side note from my misspent college years: I remember reading in a marketing class that at that time, a study showed that men viewed women driving convertibles as potential prostitutes. This prevented many of them from buying a convertible for their wives. So the concept of a car that had the style of a convertible but without the stigma of said "prostitute image" led designers to create what we came to call "hardtops", differentiated from "sedans" by the lack of B pillars. I grew up with the concept of the hardtop model being the most desirable and still feel that way.
Btw, do you have years of manufacture for your examples? I suppose it's a picky little thing, but my reference photos are sorted by year.
For example, I found the photo of the Coupe-Spider on Wikipedia. It's a 1928 model, or so the article says. So I renamed the image to: 1928 Fiat 521 C Coupe-Spider 01 01.jpg. The numbers are my own shorthand for instance and sequence. Too many years working with computer databases, I suppose. :)
Thanks for your help,
r
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I've taken a shot at consolidating some of these definitions and made some small format changes, such as using 2-character code for country ID, adding sections for pre-1919 and 1919-1941 and attempting to add some definitions for some early body styles (generally derived from horse-drawn carriages.)
This is just an attempt on my part to consolidate. Feel free to add, change, mutilate or whatever. Side note: I wrote this up in Open Office (M$ Word alternative) and its formatting codes don't get translate back into ubb code. If it's decided that it's a good idea to keep this in such a format, I'll put it on a web server somewhere (I maintain numerous websites.)
Main section, 1946-current
BERLINA:
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 4 seaters or more, 2 or 4 doors (but also 5 with the back door), 4-windows.
a.k.a. : (DE) Limousine
(FR) Berline
(UK) Saloon
(US) Sedan
Variations:
(UK) Pillarless Saloon
(US) Hardtop Sedan 2 or 4 doors without "B" pillars or window surrounds.
(US) 1950s/60s usage : "post", same as a "sedan" as opposed to a "hardtop" with "B" pillars.
FAMILIARE - GIARDINETTA:
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 4 seaters or more, back seats may be folded or removed to improve luggage room, 2 or 4 doors (but also 5 with the back door), 4-windows or more.
a.k.a. : (DE) Familcar/Kombiwagen/Kombi
(FR) Break
(UK) Estate car/Estate/Brake/Shooting Brake
(US) Station Wagon
LIMOUSINE
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 4 seaters or more, with the option of 2 or more additional seats (in italian 'strapuntini', something like the dickey (or "jump") seats) between the front and the rear seats, 4 or 6 doors, 4-windows or more. Aka Cabriolet Royale.
Variations:
(FR and others) Coupe de Ville Open chauffeur's compartment
(US) Town Brougham, Transformable Town Cabriolet
COUPE' (coupe)
Closed bodywork with fixed top (sometimes with a removable part), 2 seaters or more (with foldable front seats in case of more than 2), 2 doors, 2 or 4 windows.
(US) 1940s/50s usage:
Business coupe: no rear seat (space for salesmen's products/catalogs.)
Club coupe: This definition varies with manufacturer and model. Some close-coupled coupes with a small rear seat were called club coupes (equivalent to a 2+2 arrangement), other manufacturers used the term to describe a larger rear seating area
CABRIOLET
Closed bodywork opened by a foldable capote which can be supported on the body or rolled up, 2 seaters or more, 2 or 4 doors, 2 or more windows. When the seaters are 2 it is often called SPIDER
a.k.a. : (DE) Kabriolett/Cabriolet
(FR) Cabriolet/Decapotable
(UK) Drophead Coupe
(US) Convertible Coupe (defined by roll-up windows.) 2 doors.
TORPEDO
(DE) ??
(FR) ??
(UK) Tourer
(US) Touring car (US) Open 4 to 7 seater, sometimes called "phaeton" .
SPIDER
Closed bodywork opened by a capote and hardtop, the foldable capote can be supported on the body or rolled up, 2 seaters or more, 2 doors, 2 windows.
Usually a 2-seater CABRIOLET is called Spider.
a.k.a. : (US) runabout/roadster (side curtains instead of glass windows.)
BERLINA DECAPPOTTABILE
Closed and open bodywork, fixed b-pillar, the foldable capote can be supported on the body or rolled up, 4 seaters or more, 2 or 4 doors, 2 or more windows
(UK): 3-position drophead coupe.
LANDAULET
Closed and open bodywork with a fixed top over the front seats. The foldable capote over the back seats can be supported on the body or rolled up, 5 seaters or more with the option of 2 or more additional seats (in italian 'strapuntini', something like the dickey seats) between the front and the rear seats, 4 or 6 doors, 4 or more windows. This bodywork is generally used in executive cars
Additional sections:
Pre 1919
Dos-a-Dos: 4-6 seater, seats back to back
Vis-a-Vis: 4-6 seater, seats facing one another
Mylord: Similar to cabriolet
Duc: A cross between a Phaeton and a Victoria.
Tonneau: Open 4-seater.
Roi-des-Belges: A double phaeton with exaggerated bulges suggestive of a tulip.
Stanhope: Light car with single bench seat mounted at the center, folding cloth top, and a dashboard at the front; tiller steering.
1919-1941
COUPE' (coupe)
(US): the number of windows (not counting the windshield) described the style: 3-window (no rear quarter window) or 5-window (small quarter window) most common. Generally 2-seaters.
Opera coupe. Similar to Club coupe or Victoria with a rear seating area sized between a sedan and a 2-seat coupe.
Sport Coupe: 30s usage, particularly Ford: 2-seater with faux cabriolet top and landau irons. Other usage at the whim of the manufacturer.
30s/40s usage: Convertible Sedan: 4 doors.
RUMBLE SEAT ROADSTER
(US): roadster with a 2nd, smaller seat located where a trunk or boot would normally be. Sometimes known as "mother-in-law" seat.
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Wow...it's going fast!
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Feel free to modify as needed. If I think of something else, I'll add it, too.
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I've come to realize that the country codes I used are not the same as Georgano uses. (I didn't have his "Encyclopedia" when I wrote up what I did.)
Would it be helpful if I changed things to bring them into line with his book? And while I'm at it, maybe restructure it into sections, such as these?
Veteran/Antique/Brass and Edwardian Era 1894-1916
Vintage/Pre-War 1922-1942
Classic Era 1946-1970
Muscle Car Era 1964-1972 (A little overlap there...I'd probably skip this one altogether)
Modern Era 1971-present
Opinions?
RtR
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I'm glad you are keeping this alive, I have limited time.
I think it's a good idea to divide the definitions according to the era...I'll add the 'current era', where we can add all the funny names the marketing gurus are inventing these latest years...just think at all the different ways there are to define a 'station wagon' today!
About the 'Muscle Car Era', I don't think it can be applied worldwide.
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I'm glad you are keeping this alive, I have limited time.
I think it's a good idea to divide the definitions according to the era...I'll add the 'current era', where we can add all the funny names the marketing gurus are inventing these latest years...just think at all the different ways there are to define a 'station wagon' today!
About the 'Muscle Car Era', I don't think it can be applied worldwide.
My time is becoming more limited as car show season is underway and I'm working on my race car, although it may have a year's delay. I may end up installing a manual transmission in place of the automatic. I haven't decided yet.
Current era and Modern era? Are they the same? The range of years for Modern era is pretty broad. There are a couple of breaking points in the US that may or may not be valid. First, emission controls became mandatory in all 50 states in 1968. That and the 1974 Oil Embargo brought an end to the Muscle Car era, although I know it's not really applicable in Europe, Asia and South America (I think.) Then there was another breaking point around 1980 when On-Board Diagnostics (OBD-1) implemented a whole lotta messy emissions control devices and then again around 1995 when OBD-2 was mandated.
But those things are basically US and a lot of 'em are technical things that wouldn't have much to do with body styles. Maybe "Modern Era" could end with 1999 or 2000 and "Current Era" could be "21st Century." I'm just thinking out loud, here. I'd sure welcome input from others.
What do you think of the idea of using the same country codes the Georgano uses?
Another thing. The base language at the moment is Italian, since that was the way it was in the first draft. Should we keep it this way or, since most of the posts made here are in English, use that language as a base. Of course there's always the English English and American English thing...so again, I don't know. Most people on this forum seem to be multi-lingual, so maybe it isn't an issue.
Anybody else with suggestions?
RtR
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About Modern Era, 1971-present:
I'm browsing the price list of an old issue (1973) of a magazine and there are:
berlina, coupe, giardiniera, familiare, spider, berlinetta, week end, break, estate car, pullman, cabriolet, stationcar, giardinetta, etc
Now a 1995 issue of the same magazine:
Sport Wagon, Volante, Avant, Touring, Coupe, Cabriolet, Convertible, Break, Berlinetta, Spider, Cabrio, Station Wagon, Tourer, Liftback, Touring Wagon, Compact Wagon, Variant, Berlina, etc
And finally a 2012 issue:
berlina, cabrio, station, crossover, and for each maker the respective names: avant, roadster, spider, touring, tourer, sportwagon, wagon, roadster-coupe, sport tourer, sports tourer, SW, CC, C-C, ST, etc...
If we try to define a body style via its shape, it's easy to put Station Wagon, Compact Wagon, Variant, Touring, Giardinetta, Familiare, Giardiniera, Estate car, Tourer, SW etc in the same list...but sometimes it can be tricky.
About the language, I just took an Italian encyclopedia as a start, but I think the official language should be English English.
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I think it might be wise to separate-brand specific nomenclature. AMC's Hornet Sportabout, for instance, was a station wagon, in the normal american parlance. And Toyota's Celica Liftback was a hatchback.
Sportabout was, I think, unique to AMC, while other brands also used liftback (or-lift-back) to designate a hatchback configuration.
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Good point, Otto. I'm mentally chewing on a schema that would fit all the previously listed requirements. At least I don't have to normalize it according to the "Word of Codd." Database people will get this...for others, let it go...it wasn't that funny. :)
RtR
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I had to look it up - worth a chuckle :)
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Glad ya got a chuckle, but it can be an unreal pita to deal with.
RtR
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Jaguar XK bodies: OTS (Open Two Seater) no roof at all = roadster, DHC (Drop Head Coupé) roof = spyder, FHC (Fixed Head Coupé) closed = coupé...
OTS (UK-50s-Jaguar) can be linked to Torpedino (IT-40s-Carrozzeria Touring) and Barchetta (IT-50s-Ferrari/Touring)
No roof at all, two seats... the main difference is that the Jaguar had a windshield...
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A proposal for a general classification...
Roof: open/fixed
Seats: 2/2+2/4-6/>6
Doors: none/2/3/4/5/>5
Examples...
open roof, 2 seats, 2 doors - Spyder, Roadster
open roof, 4-6 seats, 2 doors - Cabriolet
open roof, 4-6 seats, 4 doors - Torpedo
fixed roof, 2 seats, 2 doors - Coupé
fixed roof, 2+2 seats, 2 doors - Coupé 2+2
fixed roof, 4-6 seat, 4 doors - Saloon, Sedan, Berlina, Limousine
fixed roof, 2/4-6 seats, 3 doors - Shooting Brake
fixed roof, 4-6 seats, 5 doors - Station Wagon
etc...
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A proposal for a general classification...
Roof: open/fixed
Seats: 2/2+2/4-6/>6
Doors: none/2/3/4/5/>5
Examples...
open roof, 2 seats, 2 doors - Spyder, Roadster
open roof, 4-6 seats, 2 doors - Cabriolet
open roof, 4-6 seats, 4 doors - Torpedo
fixed roof, 2 seats, 2 doors - Coupé
fixed roof, 2+2 seats, 2 doors - Coupé 2+2
fixed roof, 4-6 seat, 4 doors - Saloon, Sedan, Berlina, Limousine
fixed roof, 2/4-6 seats, 3 doors - Shooting Brake
fixed roof, 4-6 seats, 5 doors - Station Wagon
etc...
I think this is a good start for basic classification. I'm working on something that will cover the basics here.
I've also put some thought into time frames and come up with a generalized structure:
Veteran (1894-1916)
Classic (1917-1942)
Post-War (1946-1975)
Current (1976-present)
These "period" classification
I looked into AACA (Antique Automobile Club of America) show judging classes and I think it's WAY too granular for our use:
1. Pre WWI-1918
2. 1919-1931
3. 1932-1948
4. 1949-1960
5. 1961-1970
6. 1971-1977
7. 1979-1987
8. AACA Classic & Prestige
9. American Sports Cars
10. British Sports Cars
11. Other Sports Cars
12. Commercial/Trucks (through 1987)
13. Street Rods & Muscle Cars
14. Special Interest
So, moving right along, I checked into the AACA OVERALL classifications and they're just as complex if not worse...over 50 classes and sub-classes:
http://local.aaca.org/zooland/2011_Judges_Guidelines.pdf (http://local.aaca.org/zooland/2011_Judges_Guidelines.pdf)
Then I checked the CCCA (Classic Car Club of America) and while they break things out into much broader classes, they only recognize specific vehicles. But their "period classification" may be helpful:
1. Veteran: 1890s
2. Brass/Edwardian: 1900-1919
3. Vintage: 1920-1929
4. Pre-War: 1930-1939
5. War Era: 1940-1949
6. Post-War: 1950-1959
7. Classic: 1960-1979
8. Modern. 1980-1999
9. Future Classic. 2000-present
I think this is still too granular (too many eras) but it's a step in the right direction.
Then I checked out AntiqueCar.com and they have a different period classification:
1. Brass era: 1890-1918
2. Antique: before 1920
3. Vintage Era: 1920-1930
(there's a gap in here. I don't know how it's covered)
4. Classic Era: 1946-1972
5. The post '72 era is broken down by Hot Rods and Muscle Cars.
After looking into all these classification methodologies, I still like the one I proposed first. I'll do an example in another post.
RtR
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Hereabouts we use a combination of Veteran Car Club of GB (VCC) and Vintage Sports-Car Club (VSCC) competition eligibility definitions for some of our time categories:
1 Veteran pre-1905 (VCC)
2 Edwardian 1905-1918 (VCC)
2a Edwardian pre-1919 (VSCC)
3 Vintage pre-1931 (VSCC)
4 Post-Vintage Thorougbred (PVT) 1931-1940 but specified makes/models only (VSCC)
Note that there is no start date for Veteran(!) nor for VSCC Edwardian or Vintage - in the latter case that simply means that an older car can compete above its age class.
Post-war definitions are not my field - the term "Classic" is often used and seems to mean "an out of production car that I happen to own" ;D
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Using the proposed classification system, something like this could be done These are just examples of a possible structure:
Veteran (1894-1916):
Open cars
2 seats, no doors:
USA: Stanhope, Runabout
Mercer: Raceabout (manufacturer-specific)
B: Runabout, OTS, Roadster (?)
F: Duc, Cabriolet (?)
D: Victoria, Zweisitzer
Benz: Velo
I: Runabout (?), Roadster (?)
4 Seats 0-2 doors
USA: Tonneau, Touring
B: Tourer, Phaeton
F: Vis-a-Vis, Dos-a-Dos, Roi des Belges
D: Torpedo, Tonneau, Vis-a-Vis, Dos-a-Dos
I: Torpedo, Vis-a-Vis, Dos-a-Dos, Cabriolet
Closed cars
2 Seats 2 Doors
USA: Coupe
B: Coupé
F: Coupé, Conduite interieur (?)
D: Coupé
I: Coupé, Berlinetta
4 Seats 2-4 Doors
USA: Sedan, Limousine, Landau, Coach, Brougham
B: Saloon, Limousine, Landaulette
F: Berline, Conduite interieur (?), Limousine, Landaulette, Brougham
D: Landaulet,
I: Berlina,
Trucks (?)
USA: Pickup
B: Lorry
F: ?
D: LKW?
I: Camion, Camionette
If this works for people, then please add, change, delete...whatever. Any input on his will be helpful.
RtR
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Hereabouts we use a combination of Veteran Car Club of GB (VCC) and Vintage Sports-Car Club (VSCC) competition eligibility definitions for some of our time categories:
1 Veteran pre-1905 (VCC)
2 Edwardian 1905-1918 (VCC)
2a Edwardian pre-1919 (VSCC)
3 Vintage pre-1931 (VSCC)
4 Post-Vintage Thorougbred (PVT) 1931-1940 but specified makes/models only (VSCC)
Note that there is no start date for Veteran(!) nor for VSCC Edwardian or Vintage - in the latter case that simply means that an older car can compete above its age class.
Post-war definitions are not my field - the term "Classic" is often used and seems to mean "an out of production car that I happen to own" ;D
This set of categories seems to be open to interpretation by entrants and/or judges. As you mention, "Classic" is pretty nebulous. I used it mainly because it was used by a couple of sources I checked and it's convenient.
The idea of certain makes (AACA and CCCA) in a given category works well for shows and judging, but not (imho) for defining body style categories.
The deeper I get into this, the muddier the waters get. Do you think it's important to separate Veteran and Edwardian classes? Maybe combining them as "Brass Era" would work, although I'm used to seeing "Veteran" used to cover the whole range of pre-WWI (more or less) vehicles.
Another thing that could be done is to change "Classic" to "Vintage" as some entities and authors us that distinction: Veteran, Vintage, Post-war and then some arbitrary break point for "Modern" or "Current" or "Contemporary." I'm hoping to make as few classification periods as possible while making the whole thing usable.
Again, feedback, changes, whatever is requested and welcomed.
RtR
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Hereabouts we use a combination of Veteran Car Club of GB (VCC) and Vintage Sports-Car Club (VSCC) competition eligibility definitions for some of our time categories:
1 Veteran pre-1905 (VCC)
2 Edwardian 1905-1918 (VCC)
2a Edwardian pre-1919 (VSCC)
3 Vintage pre-1931 (VSCC)
4 Post-Vintage Thorougbred (PVT) 1931-1940 but specified makes/models only (VSCC)
Note that there is no start date for Veteran(!) nor for VSCC Edwardian or Vintage - in the latter case that simply means that an older car can compete above its age class.
Post-war definitions are not my field - the term "Classic" is often used and seems to mean "an out of production car that I happen to own" ;D
This set of categories seems to be open to interpretation by entrants and/or judges. As you mention, "Classic" is pretty nebulous. I used it mainly because it was used by a couple of sources I checked and it's convenient.
The idea of certain makes (AACA and CCCA) in a given category works well for shows and judging, but not (imho) for defining body style categories.
The deeper I get into this, the muddier the waters get. Do you think it's important to separate Veteran and Edwardian classes? Maybe combining them as "Brass Era" would work, although I'm used to seeing "Veteran" used to cover the whole range of pre-WWI (more or less) vehicles.
Another thing that could be done is to change "Classic" to "Vintage" as some entities and authors us that distinction: Veteran, Vintage, Post-war and then some arbitrary break point for "Modern" or "Current" or "Contemporary." I'm hoping to make as few classification periods as possible while making the whole thing usable.
Again, feedback, changes, whatever is requested and welcomed.
RtR
Dear Mr Rat (or may I call you Ray ;D)
Here in Britain we have our reasons for two of the named periods which make us rather protective about their use.
The Veteran Car Club of GB was formed after the London to Brighton run in 1930 and as the cutoff date for that was and remains the end of 1904 that's why that Club and we here in general use Veteran for that period.
Similarly when the Vintage Sports-Car Club was founded in 1934 it was as a reaction to the "grey porridge" that was being mass-produced then and the founders regarded the period up to about three years before as Vintage (in the wine sense - they understood that sort of thing!).
Quite where the "Edwardian" name came from I don't know and it is only partly accurate as our King Edward VII died in May 1910 when only about a third of the Edwardian period (for cars) had passed and there would be a case for "Georgian" until you realise that would cover all the Vintage period as well as half the PVT! Apart from a 326 day gap it could be extended to 1953 . . .
As you've started to set out elsewhere the body styles' names change with period, though not in step with the period names of course. What seems to have happened a lot is the use of names untranslated from the language they were first used in - e.g. we had cars which were dos-a-dos not back-to-back (a term we also use in square dancing I believe). We also have coupés, possibly because the only word/phrase we have that means the same is "cut-down".
Then there is the continuing problem of our two great nations divided by a common language: I know enough to understand what a saloon is in the USofA so it's not suitable as a car body name but where did sedan come form? Sedan Chair I know of, but that's a bit unlikely and Sedan in France isn't renowned for its car industry.
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I've also put some thought into time frames and come up with a generalized structure:
Veteran (1894-1916)
Classic (1917-1942)
Post-War (1946-1975)
Current (1976-present)
Talking about body style I think we can use a less specific year classification, like:
A - pre WWI
B - WWI > WWII
C - 40s > 60s
D - 70s > today
No years, but a generic identification for four "periods"...
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I've also put some thought into time frames and come up with a generalized structure:
Veteran (1894-1916)
Classic (1917-1942)
Post-War (1946-1975)
Current (1976-present)
Talking about body style I think we can use a less specific year classification, like:
A - pre WWI
B - WWI > WWII
C - 40s > 60s
D - 70s > today
No years, but a generic identification for four "periods"...
Yes, I'd generally agree with that...... with a few small reservations
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I'll answer to just about anything, Allan...and I've been called a whole lot worse. ;D
First. Origins of "sedan." I did a bit of digging and many sources state that the origin of the word is obscure when it comes to its use as a "sedan chair" or automobile body style. I'm gonna have to argue with Wikipedia a bit because they state, "a sedan is always closed." I guess no one told 'em about a convertible sedan...which is something of an oxymoron, but was used in the 30s and 40s pretty extensively. This seems to be the best explanation of its etymology:
"1635, 'covered chair on poles,' possibly from a southern Italian dialect derivative of It. sede 'chair' (cf. It. seggietta, 1598; the thing itself was said to have been introduced from Naples), from L. sedes, related to sedere 'sit' (see sedentary). Since Johnson's conjecture, often derived from the town of Sedan in France, where it was said to have been made or first used, but historical evidence for this is lacking. Introduced in England by Sir Sanders Duncombe in 1634 and first called a covered chair." I had plenty of experience with saloons, but let's just say that I don't do that anymore. :)
Coupe or Coupé DOES originate from the past tense of the French verb, "couper" (to cut) so, yeah, it's a "sedan" with the rear seating portion cut off:
"1825–35; < French coupé (in defs. 1 and 2 short for carrosse coupé cut (i.e., shortened) coach), past participle of couper to cut off"
Having given the term "Edwardian" some thought, it would be comprehensible to those in the UK, but much less so in the US and probably pretty close to meaningless to those in the far east and perhaps South American and Eastern Europe, although I'm sure members like Faksta understand it. Given that premise, I'd suggest that a more "global" term be used. I did more research and found that the VCC of the UK defines things exactly as you stated but in the same book where I found it states that the so-called "vintage era" begins in 1919; I take this to mean a return to motoring "normalcy" after WWI.
If the term "Brass Era" was used instead of Veteran and/or Edwardian, it could cover that time span, but it wouldn't really be accurate, since brass fittings began to be replaced with painted or plating of other types somewhere between 1914 and 1916...and I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions to that statement. So Brass Era wouldn't be my choice of verbiage.
Maybe the way to do it would be to use years only:
Pre-1919 which I don't like because it makes 1919 a questionable year, so I'd prefer 1885-1919, using the year of the first Benz car as the older boundary and 1919 to correspond with the end of WWI.
Pre-1920 might be a better term.
1920-1942 as a "between the wars" era.
1946-1975 I suggest 1975 because it was the "beginning of the end" for US muscle cars following the Arab oil embargo. I don't really know how this affected cars in Europe or other parts of the world, but it was a point of major changes in the US.
1976-present. This might be broken into two eras, 1976-1999 and 2000-present being "21st century" examples (I know...the century didn't actually start until 2001, but for the sake of round numbers.....)
If period names are discarded for the purpose of this "directory" then there's no ambiguity: either a car falls into a category or it doesn't. WWII presents a small problem, but I suppose the "between the wars" era could be extended to 1945, especially if no period names were used.
Quick note. In US square dancing, the term "Do-Si-Do" is derived from the Cajun patois and does indeed mean 2 by 2, same as the dos-a-dos, back-to-back seating arrangement, opposed to vis-a-vis, or face to face.
Again, comments, changes, opinions, suggestions are requested and welcomed.
RtR
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I've also put some thought into time frames and come up with a generalized structure:
Veteran (1894-1916)
Classic (1917-1942)
Post-War (1946-1975)
Current (1976-present)
Talking about body style I think we can use a less specific year classification, like:
A - pre WWI
B - WWI > WWII
C - 40s > 60s
D - 70s > today
No years, but a generic identification for four "periods"...
See the response I made while you and woodinsight were chiming in. I think we may be heading in the same direction.
RtR
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Here's a shot at the "early era" (1885-1919) broken down by open/closed, then number of seats/doors, then country with some manufacturers-specific entries and some "universal" body styles carried over from horse-drawn carriages.
Universal Body Style Directory
1895-1919
Open cars
2 seats, 0-2 doors
USA: Stanhope, Runabout
B: Runabout, OTS, Roadster (?)
F: Duc, Cabriolet (?)
D: Victoria, Zweisitzer
I: Spider
Manufacturer-Specific Mercer: Raceabout
Benz: Velo
4-6 seats, 2-4 doors
USA: Touring, Phaeton
B: Tourer
F: Tonneau, Phaeton, Victoria
D: Victoria, Tonneau, Phaeton, Doppelphaeton
I: Torpedo
Universal Dos-a-Dos, Vis-a-Vis, Mylord, Roi-des-Belges
Closed cars
2 seats, 0-2 doors
USA: Coupe
B: Coupe, Coupé
F: Coupé, Conduite Interiéure
D: Coupe, Coupé
I: Coupe, Coupé
4+ seats, 4+ doors
USA: Sedan, Limousine, Town Car, Landaulette, Coupe de Ville
B: Saloon, Limousine, Town Car, Landaulette, Coupe de Ville
F: Sedan (?) Limousine, Landaulette, Coupe de Ville
D: Landaulette
I: Limousine,Landaulette
Please make changes, give opinions/feedback...all input welcome.
RtR
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Here's a shot at the "early era" (1885-1919) broken down by open/closed, then number of seats/doors, then country with some manufacturers-specific entries and some "universal" body styles carried over from horse-drawn carriages.
Universal Body Style Directory
1895-1919
Open cars
2 seats, 0-2 doors
USA: Stanhope, Runabout
B: Runabout, OTS, Roadster (?)
F: Duc, Cabriolet (?)
D: Victoria, Zweisitzer
I: Spider
Manufacturer-Specific Mercer: Raceabout
Benz: Velo
4-6 seats, 2-4 doors
USA: Touring, Phaeton
B: Tourer
F: Tonneau, Phaeton, Victoria
D: Victoria, Tonneau, Phaeton, Doppelphaeton
I: Torpedo
Universal Dos-a-Dos, Vis-a-Vis, Mylord, Roi-des-Belges
Closed cars
2 seats, 0-2 doors
USA: Coupe
B: Coupe, Coupé
F: Coupé, Conduite Interiéure
D: Coupe, Coupé
I: Coupe, Coupé
4+ seats, 4+ doors
USA: Sedan, Limousine, Town Car, Landaulette, Coupe de Ville
B: Saloon, Limousine, Town Car, Landaulette, Coupe de Ville
F: Sedan (?) Limousine, Landaulette, Coupe de Ville
D: Landaulette
I: Limousine,Landaulette
Please make changes, give opinions/feedback...all input welcome.
RtR
Great! :thumbsup:
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Here's a shot at the "early era" (1885-1919) broken down by open/closed, then number of seats/doors, then country with some manufacturers-specific entries and some "universal" body styles carried over from horse-drawn carriages.
Universal Body Style Directory
1895-1919
Open cars
2 seats, 0-2 doors
USA: Stanhope, Runabout
B: Runabout, OTS, Roadster (?)
F: Duc, Cabriolet (?)
D: Victoria, Zweisitzer
I: Spider
Manufacturer-Specific Mercer: Raceabout
Benz: Velo
4-6 seats, 2-4 doors
USA: Touring, Phaeton
B: Tourer
F: Tonneau, Phaeton, Victoria
D: Victoria, Tonneau, Phaeton, Doppelphaeton
I: Torpedo
Universal Dos-a-Dos, Vis-a-Vis, Mylord, Roi-des-Belges
Closed cars
2 seats, 0-2 doors
USA: Coupe
B: Coupe, Coupé
F: Coupé, Conduite Interiéure
D: Coupe, Coupé
I: Coupe, Coupé
4+ seats, 4+ doors
USA: Sedan, Limousine, Town Car, Landaulette, Coupe de Ville
B: Saloon, Limousine, Town Car, Landaulette, Coupe de Ville
F: Sedan (?) Limousine, Landaulette, Coupe de Ville
D: Landaulette
I: Limousine,Landaulette
Please make changes, give opinions/feedback...all input welcome.
RtR
Great! :thumbsup:
So this would work for you in this format?
Any changes you'd suggest?
Are the body styles close for Italian cars in the "first era?"
RtR
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Yes I think it's a good format!
Unfortunately italian bodies from that era are a little obscure to me... I don't know when the name Berlina born, but for sure it's the most common name for closed cars with four doors in Italy... so maybe it was the same in the 10s...
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Can't have been known in 1963 in the USofA or they wouldn't have written "Ich bin ein Berlina" for Kennedy to say. ;D
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Can't have been known in 1963 in the USofA or they wouldn't have written "Ich bin ein Berlina" for Kennedy to say. ;D
LOL! Kennedy's Massachusetts accent sure made it sound that way, references to the misinterpreted homonym for a pastry aside.
I think it would have been a pretty obscure term at that time, probably known only to a small handful of vintage car enthusiasts.
While I was sniffing around the web, searching for the root of "berlina" I came across an interesting site that provides translation (unverified) for Italian "car words" to English:
http://www.international-auto.com/fiat-lancia-miscellaneous/automotive-terms-translated-from-italian-to-english.cfm (http://www.international-auto.com/fiat-lancia-miscellaneous/automotive-terms-translated-from-italian-to-english.cfm)
Others may be aware of this, but it's new to me. Seems like it might come in handy.
RtR
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Great work so far.
I can add a list of "manufacturer specfic"...
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Great work so far.
I can add a list of "manufacturer specfic"...
That would be wonderful! Thanks!
RtR
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Where does a "Berlinetta" fit into the scheme of things?
I think it is a coupe without quarter lights, ie two windows each side.
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Where does a "Berlinetta" fit into the scheme of things?
I think it is a coupe without quarter lights, ie two windows each side.
I never understand the difference between a Coupé and a Berlinetta... and so I consider them as the same body type, with both one or two windows each side... I think it's a problem of makes and coachbuilders, which used both names without a specific meaning...
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Where does a "Berlinetta" fit into the scheme of things?
I think it is a coupe without quarter lights, ie two windows each side.
I never understand the difference between a Coupé and a Berlinetta... and so I consider them as the same body type, with both one or two windows each side... I think it's a problem of makes and coachbuilders, which used both names without a specific meaning...
I also think the meaning of "berlina" and "berlinetta" is somewhat at the mercy of the coachbuilders and the people that assign "model names," although I've come to think of 'em as equivalent to "coupe" and "sedan." I thought it was more common in post-WWII and especially post-1960 vehicles, but the more I work on this, the more I begin to believe that body styles have always been pretty much "manufacturer-specific." The Model A Ford has a couple of good examples. Sport Coupe, to start with. A faux cabriolet with landau irons. Then Ford's use of "Tudor" and "Fordor" to indicate 2- and 4-door sedans...and so on. That also runs into the question about "phaeton" vs "touring car" or "tourer." Model Ts that were open 4-5 seaters with a folding top were touring cars. When the Model A was introduced in late 1927, all of a sudden, that body style became "phaeton", a name that had been used on Lincolns.
Then there's the 3-window and 5-window coupe thing. This is more of a hot rod definition (at least in my experience) where a 3-window coupe has no rear quarter windows, but a 5-window does. The windshield isn't counted in the terminology...and it's applied to Fords, Oldsmobiles, Pontiacs and a whole bunch of other mid-30s US-produced cars.
And if you really want to get confused, look at Studebaker models....especially from 1948 until the company's demise. Aside from "Champion" and "Commander" signifying 6-cylinder and V8 (1955-1963) there wasn't much rhyme nor reason that I can determine. I pity the salesmen who had to learn new model names every year.
Another area that probably otta be defined is the difference between a convertible and a roadster (in my "world", a convertible has roll-up windows, a roadster doesn't) but then how does one define "convertible coupe" and "convertible sedan"? This may be an "era" thing with the latter 2 model names being used in the 1930s and pretty much fading away after that...with some exceptions.
This is a big can of worms...and I've been told that once such a can has been opened, the only way to get the worms back in is to use a bigger can. I think that's appropriate here.
I'll see if I can flesh out the next era a little this evening.
RtR
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This includes body styles of cars from 1920-1945. I'm considering adding a column for "secondary" style names and using the existing column for a single "primary" name. Example: First entry, USA open car 1895-1919 would have a primary style name of Runabout, with Stanhope and any others in the secondary column.
PLEASE correct any mistakes, omissions or add anything you think would be helpful.
Thanks,
RtR
Universal Body Style Directory
1895-1919
Open cars
2 seats, 0-2 doors
USA: Stanhope, Runabout
B: Runabout, OTS, Roadster (?)
F: Duc, Cabriolet (?) , Roadster (?), Runabout (?)
D: Victoria, Zweisitzer
I: Spider
4-6 seat, 2-4 doors
USA: Touring, Phaeton
B: Tourer
F: Tonneau, Phaeton, Victoria
D: Victoria, Tonneau, Phaeton, Doppelphaeton, Torpedo
I: Torpedo
Manufacturer-Specific Mercer: Raceabout
Benz: Velo, Comfortable
De Dion Bouton: Motorette
Universal Dos-a-Dos, Vis-a-Vis, Mylord, Roi-des-Belges
Closed cars
2 seats, 0-2 doors
USA: Coupe, Club Coupe, Business Coupe, Opera Coupe
B: Coupe, Coupé
F: Coupé, Conduite Interiéure
D: Coupe, Coupé
I: Coupe, Coupé
4+ seats, 4+ doors
USA: Sedan, Victoria, Limousine, Town Car, Coupe de Ville
B: Saloon, Limousine, Town Car, Landaulette, Coupe de Ville
F: Sedan (?) Limousine, Landaulette, Coupe de Ville
D: Landaulette
I: Limousine,Landaulette
1920-1942
Open cars
2 seats, 0-2 doors
USA: Speedster, Roadster, Convertible
B: OTS, Drop Head Coupe (DHC) Roadster (?)
F: Cabriolet, Coupé décapotable, Voiturette
D: Victoria, Zweisitzer
I: Spider
4-6 seat, 2-4 doors USA: Touring, Phaeton, Convertible Sedan
B: Tourer
F: Tonneau, Phaeton, Victoria, Coach décapotable, Torpédo
D: Victoria, Tonneau, Phaeton, Doppelphaeton, Limousine
I: Torpedo, Siluro
Closed cars
2 seats, 1-2 doors
USA: Coupe (3-window, 5-window)
B: Coupe, Coupé, Fixed Head Coupe (FHC)
F: Coupé, Conduite Interiéure, Berlinetta
D: Coupé, Coupe de Voyage
I: Coupe, Coupé
4-6 seats, 2-4 doors
USA: Sedan, Limousine, Town Car, Landaulette, Sedanca de Ville
B: Saloon, Limousine, Town Car, Landaulette, Sedanca de Ville
F: Conduite Interiéure, Berline, Limousine, Cabriolet Chauffeur
D: ?
I: Berline, Limousine
4+ seats, 2+ doors, enclosed storage area
USA: Station Wagon, “Woodie” (body constructed of wood)
B: Shooting Brake, Estate car
F: Break
D: Kombi
I: Giardinera, Giardinetta
Manufacturer-Specific Mercedes Benz: Sportwagen
Universal Skiff, Faux Cabriolet
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Some remarks (and corrections) about the German names:
1895-1919: (Why 1895, why not 1885?)
- Closed cars, 4+ seats, 4+ doors: Correct would be Innenlenker or Limousine. Landaulet / Landaulett was the body style with a fixed roof in the middle and a convertible roof above the back seats. There could be a roof above the chauffeur's seat, or not.
1920-1942: (Again 1942 is a very American date. Let's just say 1945.)
- Open cars, 2 seats: Sportwagen is a very commonly used name, not just by Mercedes-Benz. Victoria wasn't used in those years anymore. Cabriolet was the general name for open cars in Germany regardless of the number of seats. For instance, Mercedes-Benz used a letter code for the different Cabriolets: A = 2 doors, 2 side windows (meaning 1 each left and right), 2 seats; B = 2 doors, 4 side windows, 4 seats; C = 2 doors, 2 side windows, 4 seats; D = 4 doors, 4 side windows, 4 seats; F = 4 doors, 6 side windows, 4 seats. The name Roadster was also used for open two-seaters with a thinner convertible roof.
- Open cars, 4-6 seats, 2-4 doors: Victoria and Tonneau weren't used anymore (Tonneau was an early body form with rear entrance for the backseat passengers). Phaeton was more often called Tourenwagen. Limousine was a closed body, not an open one.
- Closed cars, 1-2 seats, 2 doors:I can't recall reading Coupe de Voyage as a body style description used in Germany. If you wanted to emphasize the comfortable character opposed to the sporty one, you would have rather called it Reise-Coupé.
- Closed cars, 4-6 seats, 2-4 doors: Here Limousine or Pullman-Limousine for the LWB versions should apply.
- 4+ seats, 2+ doors, enclosed storage area: This body style was hardly known in Germany before the war. Some single specimen were called Jagdwagen or Farmerwagen.
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Some remarks (and corrections) about the German names:
1895-1919: (Why 1895, why not 1885?)
- Closed cars, 4+ seats, 4+ doors: Correct would be Innenlenker or Limousine. Landaulet / Landaulett was the body style with a fixed roof in the middle and a convertible roof above the back seats. There could be a roof above the chauffeur's seat, or not.
1920-1942: (Again 1942 is a very American date. Let's just say 1945.)
- Open cars, 2 seats: Sportwagen is a very commonly used name, not just by Mercedes-Benz. Victoria wasn't used in those years anymore. Cabriolet was the general name for open cars in Germany regardless of the number of seats. For instance, Mercedes-Benz used a letter code for the different Cabriolets: A = 2 doors, 2 side windows (meaning 1 each left and right), 2 seats; B = 2 doors, 4 side windows, 4 seats; C = 2 doors, 2 side windows, 4 seats; D = 4 doors, 4 side windows, 4 seats; F = 4 doors, 6 side windows, 4 seats. The name Roadster was also used for open two-seaters with a thinner convertible roof.
- Open cars, 4-6 seats, 2-4 doors: Victoria and Tonneau weren't used anymore (Tonneau was an early body form with rear entrance for the backseat passengers). Phaeton was more often called Tourenwagen. Limousine was a closed body, not an open one.
- Closed cars, 1-2 seats, 2 doors:I can't recall reading Coupe de Voyage as a body style description used in Germany. If you wanted to emphasize the comfortable character opposed to the sporty one, you would have rather called it Reise-Coupé.
- Closed cars, 4-6 seats, 2-4 doors: Here Limousine or Pullman-Limousine for the LWB versions should apply.
- 4+ seats, 2+ doors, enclosed storage area: This body style was hardly known in Germany before the war. Some single specimen were called Jagdwagen or Farmerwagen.
:bag:
Thank you for your corrections. Here are some of the changes I'll make:
I meant to use 1885 as a starting point, using that as the year for the first Benz. I guess my fingers didn't get the memo. Duh. I'll also make the ending date for this era 1945 which leaves no years uncovered.
Coupe de Voyage should have been on the line for France. Duh again.
I think I'll add an additional line for chauffeur-driven cars as opposed to self-driven and I'll also add the Jagdwagen/Farmerwagen (should that be Baurwagen or was the word "Farmer" taken from English?) to the station wagon/shooting brake section.
On the cabriolet vs roadster, the way it is in the US is that a convertible (or cabriolet or convertible coupe) has roll-up windows while a roadster doesn't. This is the same for touring cars and phaetons vs. convertible sedans. Is this the same in German naming conventions? Btw, thanks for the clarification on the A, B, etc. following Cabriolet. I didn't know this, although I'd seen the designation...I just didn't understand it.
Sportwagen will go in where I had Victoria.
Other duties call at the moment, but I'll get to is asap.
RtR
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Wanderer really used the name Farmerwagen for their 1940 W 23 Woody prototype. The reason was that it wasn't meant for the German Bauer, but for the colonial Farmer. In fact, the name referred more to its use than to the body style, as DKW used the Farmerwagen designation for a mixture of a Kübelwagen and a pickup.
Forget what I said about the Jagdwagen. My memory played tricks on me. Jagdwagen was another name for the Kübelwagen body type, not for a station wagon.
The differences between Cabriolet and Roadster are as you have guessed.
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Having beaten my hands to a pulp trying to straighten out the dents in the floorboards of my race car (where the driveshaft tried to get into the driver's seat with me) and then having dinner with my sons, daughters-in-law and granddaughter, I finally got back to this....well, while the phone wasn't ringing. It finally and conveniently ran out of battery so I could get something done.
I decided that since I was doing it in an Open Office spreadsheet, I might as well make it a web spreadsheet. Here's the url:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc
The way it's set up, anyone who has the link to it can see and modify it. If I need to, I can put a password on it...but only members of this board should have the link, so I ask that it stay that way until we've reached the place where it can be converted to a static web page.
I've never used the web-based spreadsheets before, so I don't know if it's gonna work...but it's worth a shot.
Anyway, that's what I came up with. Fire away with corrections, criticisms, and other forms of "stimulating discussion." ::)
RtR
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That spreadsheet looks good so far.
I'll offer a few suggestions here, rather than just add them myself as although I know I'm right it is not impossible that I may be misinformed!
Pre-Great War we had both Roi des Belges and Double Phaeton bodies which were open cars with two rows of seats that could be entered from the side with or without doors.
We also had various tonneau bodies differentiated by access: Rear-entrance tonneau has a door in the back often with a seat actually on the door.
Swing-seat tonneau has access via a moveable front seat (usually passenger's) and the side-access tonneau was not much different from a double phaeton.
As Wendax wrote, the Landaulet has a fixed roof in the middle and a convertible roof over the back seats. Here it can also be an Open Drive Landaulet if there is no roof over the chauffeur's seat, and similarly there is the Open Drive Limousine.
From the 1920s onwards our understanding of a drophead coupé is that it has doors with proper drop-down windows and usually a fold-down frame for them to close against. It usually has two doors but can have two rows of seats as can the fixed-head coupé.
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That spreadsheet looks good so far.
I'll offer a few suggestions here, rather than just add them myself as although I know I'm right it is not impossible that I may be misinformed!
Pre-Great War we had both Roi des Belges and Double Phaeton bodies which were open cars with two rows of seats that could be entered from the side with or without doors.
I thank you profusely for your feedback/input. It's very well received and very helpful.
I added Double Phaeton to the Secondary Style column. Roi-des-Belges was (and still is) listed in the "Universal" group, since it's a style that was used in most, if not all, car-producing countries prior to WWI (Great War.)
Btw, if you or anyone else can think of a better name for that "Universal" group, please let me know. ("Non-specific", maybe?)
We also had various tonneau bodies differentiated by access: Rear-entrance tonneau has a door in the back often with a seat actually on the door.
Swing-seat tonneau has access via a moveable front seat (usually passenger's) and the side-access tonneau was not much different from a double phaeton.
I added Tonneau and Rear-entrance Tonneau to the Secondary style column in the British, USA and German groups. Side-access seems to be the default for Tonneau, hence the need to add the Rear-Entrance distinction. Swing-seat is a new one to me. Is is somewhat manufacturer-specific? If it's an industry-wide term, I can add it to the Secondary Style column, although it's getting a little crowded in there. Maybe I could move some to the Universal group...or so could you, for that matter.
As Wendax wrote, the Landaulet has a fixed roof in the middle and a convertible roof over the back seats. Here it can also be an Open Drive Landaulet if there is no roof over the chauffeur's seat, and similarly there is the Open Drive Limousine.
How would you state this in the two columns I've defined? I've added it to the Closed Car, Chauffeur-driven secondary definitions for the British and USA groups; I hope this works.
From the 1920s onwards our understanding of a drophead coupé is that it has doors with proper drop-down windows and usually a fold-down frame for them to close against. It usually has two doors but can have two rows of seats as can the fixed-head coupé.
First: Is it Coupe or Coupé as the standard British term?
Next, I've tried to imply your statement with all definitions and now I've spelled it out in an explanatory note. Example: in the US, a convertible or convertible coupe has what we'd call roll-up windows (you say drop-down, I think we're saying the same thing) while a roadster has no such feature, but usually had side curtains. This is carried over in all open cars in the 1920-1945 era: USA: Convertible, Roadster; B: Drop Head Coupe, Open Two Seater; F: Cabriolet, Coupé décapotable (I think this is correct, but I'm not positive.) and so on. Same thing for 4+ seaters: USA: Touring, Convertible Sedan, although I don't know exactly what terms to use for British and Italian models and Wendax tells me that the same type of distinction was made with German cars and defines 2-seaters as Cabriolet and Roadster. He also defines a Cabriolet as a term used to describe a 4+ seater with roll-up windows, but I don't know what the equivalent of a Touring car or Tourer is, unless Tourenwagen specifically refers to this body style. I'll add it and if it's wrong, I'll take it out...or anyone who wants to make a correction can do so. If you could add the British name for this, it would help.
I need some help with the French and Italian nomenclature. While I spoke passable French and German 40 years ago, those skills have deteriorated, and I'm nowhere near fluent in Italian. So: HELP!!! ;D
One other change I'm considering is a "Notes" column to the right of the existing columns. This might be a good place to put the "Universal" and "convertible/roadster" explanations, as well as the Mercedes Cabriolet distinctions, although that last one may be better off remaining in the "Manufacturer-Specific" group. Whaddya all think?
Another thing I haven't done is made any Eastern European, South American, Asian, African or Australian/New Zealander sections. I don't know if there are enough makes/models to warrant them. Input on this is requested.
Ok. I gotta go work on my tow car before it gets real hot. All of a sudden our weather has gone from pleasant to blistering hot. Yesterday the high temp was around 101F (38.3C or close to it.) and the same is predicted for the rest of the week. Since my race car is taking up all my garage space, I have to work on my other cars in my driveway. I'd consider trading a grandchild for a 4-car shop. My son and his wife might not like it, but they'd get over it. ::) Welcome to summer in the high desert.
Again, the web-based spreadsheet is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc&pli=1#gid=0
RtR
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One very common body type in the era 1920-1945 (and later) is missing. In Germany it was called Cabrio-Limousine, in France Découvrable: the convertible sedan with fixed side windows, but a convertible roof including the rear window.
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One very common body type in the era 1920-1945 (and later) is missing. In Germany it was called Cabrio-Limousine, in France Découvrable: the convertible sedan with fixed side windows, but a convertible roof including the rear window.
This one kinda threw a monkey wrench into the works. It's basically country/area-specific. I know that at least one US manufacturer created something similar, but it was very rare and today, very desirable as a collector car. That's the Ford A-400 (1929-1931) and B-400 (1932) and there may be more than I'm just not aware of.
What happened, though was to add a different body-style for France and Germany (and possibly others.) The way I addressed it was to 1) add a column for notes and descriptive text and 2) make a separate row for (for example) the Cabrio-limousine and one for Cabriolet and yet another one for Roadster, which may or may not be the correct form. Nonetheless, it allows me (or anyone else) to add text the describes the side window configuration. I used this format for all the entries (where I had information) in the Open Cars 1920-1945 category. I didn't add the A/B-400, since that's a manufacturer-specific (at least I believe it is) and I'll deal with those later.
See what you think,
RtR
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One very common body type in the era 1920-1945 (and later) is missing. In Germany it was called Cabrio-Limousine, in France Découvrable: the convertible sedan with fixed side windows, but a convertible roof including the rear window.
From Italy:
"trasformabile" and "berlina con tetto apribile" (sedan with open roof)...
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Two great nations divided by a common language, Ray!
We often spell it coupe rather than coupé but it is not pronounced "coop".
I find "roll-up" windows unhelpful as hereabouts we roll up maps, carpets, etc. and one might do so with flexible side-curtains. I presume it comes from the use of the rotary movement that drives modern windows, but in earlier times (and in railway carriages) windows were lifted and secured using a leather strap.
Swing-seat tonneaux were not manufacturer-specific. It was often the case that rear bodywork was demountable and you could fit a rear-entrance tonneau or something else (e.g. a flat-bed or van commercial type job). If the tonneau was permanent you got a better seat if you had swing-seat access as you didn't have to have a door in the middle of it.
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This one kinda threw a monkey wrench into the works. It's basically country/area-specific. I know that at least one US manufacturer created something similar, but it was very rare and today, very desirable as a collector car. That's the Ford A-400 (1929-1931) and B-400 (1932) and there may be more than I'm just not aware of.
What happened, though was to add a different body-style for France and Germany (and possibly others.) The way I addressed it was to 1) add a column for notes and descriptive text and 2) make a separate row for (for example) the Cabrio-limousine and one for Cabriolet and yet another one for Roadster, which may or may not be the correct form. Nonetheless, it allows me (or anyone else) to add text the describes the side window configuration. I used this format for all the entries (where I had information) in the Open Cars 1920-1945 category. I didn't add the A/B-400, since that's a manufacturer-specific (at least I believe it is) and I'll deal with those later.
See what you think,
RtR
Nash / Rambler featured this body style in the early 1950's, as well. Here's one with "Helicopter Girl". :D
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One very common body type in the era 1920-1945 (and later) is missing. In Germany it was called Cabrio-Limousine, in France Découvrable: the convertible sedan with fixed side windows, but a convertible roof including the rear window.
From Italy:
"trasformabile" and "berlina con tetto apribile" (sedan with open roof)...
Thank you. I've added those descriptions on their own line.
I have a question for you about other open cars. It seems that most countries/languages have separate terms for cars with "roll-up" or "drop-down" side glass and those that have none, but may have used side curtains in bad weather. US usage is "Convertible" for those that have "roll-up" (yes, it has to do with the crank mechanism that one uses to "roll the window up or down") side windows and "Roadster" for cars that had no side glass. "Convertible" (or "Convertible Coupe") generally refers to a 2-door car, as does "Roadster." For cars with 4 doors, the term "Convertible Sedan" is used for those with glass windows and "Touring Car" (or just "Touring") for cars without side glass.
Now the question(s): is there an equivalent term for Italian cars of the same description? Is "Spider/Spyder" equivalent to "Roadster?" I received a reply that said "Spider" was first coined by an Irish motoring writer (I think that's the way it was stated), but seems to be pretty commonly used to describe Italian cars with no top.
Any clarification here would be very much appreciated.
RtR
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Two great nations divided by a common language, Ray!
Absolutely!
We often spell it coupe rather than coupé but it is not pronounced "coop".
So is the British pronunciation. "coop-ay" as it would be in French and other languages?
I find "roll-up" windows unhelpful as hereabouts we roll up maps, carpets, etc. and one might do so with flexible side-curtains. I presume it comes from the use of the rotary movement that drives modern windows, but in earlier times (and in railway carriages) windows were lifted and secured using a leather strap.
As I wrote to Iluvatar, the term "Roll-Up" does derive from the crank mechanism. It seems that the British term comes from an even older source. So I just used the term "Movable side windows." That should cover both ways of looking at it as well as including sliding plexi-glass or other non-glass windows. (This ain't easy, yanno?)
Swing-seat tonneaux were not manufacturer-specific. It was often the case that rear bodywork was demountable and you could fit a rear-entrance tonneau or something else (e.g. a flat-bed or van commercial type job). If the tonneau was permanent you got a better seat if you had swing-seat access as you didn't have to have a door in the middle of it.
I've added "Swing-seat tonneau" to the list of 1885-1919 open 4+ seat cars. Is this only a term for British coachwork? Are there examples from other countries that you're aware of?...like those from the US? I'm not familiar with the term, but then I don't claim to be an expert on brass-era cars, either.
Now a question for you. Same one I asked of Iluvatar: It seems that most countries/languages have separate terms for cars with "roll-up" or "drop-down" side glass and those that have none, but may have used side curtains in bad weather. US usage is "Convertible" for those that have "roll-up" side windows and "Roadster" for cars that had no side glass. "Convertible" (or "Convertible Coupe") generally refers to a 2-door car, as does "Roadster." For cars with 4 doors, the term "Convertible Sedan" is used for those with glass windows and "Touring Car" (or just "Touring") for cars without side glass.
I think I'm correct in using "Tourer" for British open cars, but I don't know if the same distinction is made for those with side glass and those without. If you could help me clarify this, I'd sure appreciate the help.
RtR
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This one kinda threw a monkey wrench into the works. It's basically country/area-specific. I know that at least one US manufacturer created something similar, but it was very rare and today, very desirable as a collector car. That's the Ford A-400 (1929-1931) and B-400 (1932) and there may be more than I'm just not aware of.
What happened, though was to add a different body-style for France and Germany (and possibly others.) The way I addressed it was to 1) add a column for notes and descriptive text and 2) make a separate row for (for example) the Cabrio-limousine and one for Cabriolet and yet another one for Roadster, which may or may not be the correct form. Nonetheless, it allows me (or anyone else) to add text the describes the side window configuration. I used this format for all the entries (where I had information) in the Open Cars 1920-1945 category. I didn't add the A/B-400, since that's a manufacturer-specific (at least I believe it is) and I'll deal with those later.
See what you think,
RtR
Nash / Rambler featured this body style in the early 1950's, as well. Here's one with "Helicopter Girl". :D
Ahhh, yes. I'd forgotten about that million-seller. :) A well-known web site that starts with "wikipedia" ;D states that the style of car shown with "Helicopter girl" was just referred to as "Convertible" and was the result of difficulty in obtaining sheet steel in the immediate post-WWII and Korean war years. Apparently, this was their approach to making the most of what they could get. However, that source isn't always 100 percent correct, so take that explanation with a grain of salt, although the photos in my own reference library seem to bear it out as correct. Nonetheless, I appreciate the reminder. I'm not sure that it warrants a separate listing in the next "era's" listings, but we'll burn that bridge when we get to it.
Thanks again,
RtR
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Yes we say coupé even when we spell it coupe.
I have had a quick look at the body styles listed in the last Veteran Car Club (of GB) list of pre 1919 cars I have, and although they are what the owner has nominated, there is something of a pattern!
Swing-seat tonneau is recorded for GB and F made cars.
Side-entrance tonneau is used for US, GB, F and D made cars
Tonneau is used for D, GB, US, F, I and S made cars.
Tourer, Touring and Two-seater are used for more or less every make - may be to do with the VCC being British.
Speedster, Surrey, Roadster and Runabout are used exclusively for US made cars plus a few US-owned others.
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Yes we say coupé even when we spell it coupe.
I have had a quick look at the body styles listed in the last Veteran Car Club (of GB) list of pre 1919 cars I have, and although they are what the owner has nominated, there is something of a pattern!
Swing-seat tonneau is recorded for GB and F made cars.
Added to 1895-1919.
Side-entrance tonneau is used for US, GB, F and D made cars
Same as above.
Tonneau is used for D, GB, US, F, I and S made cars.
Same as above.
Tourer, Touring and Two-seater are used for more or less every make - may be to do with the VCC being British.
Changes made where appropriate, but with a question: Is Two-Seater used for open cars only? Right now, I have Open Two-Seater used to describe what in the US would be called a Runabout or Roadster. My wild guess would be that a closed two-seater would fall into the Coupe category.
Speedster, Surrey, Roadster and Runabout are used exclusively for US made cars plus a few US-owned others.
I've made changes to reflect this, also.
Link to spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc&pli=1#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc&pli=1#gid=0)
RtR
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dos-a-dos
As I understand it, two (or more) passengers, seated back-to-back. Like this car:
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dos-a-dos
As I understand it, two (or more) passengers, seated back-to-back. Like this car:
Yep. I've left it in the "Universal" (maybe I otta change that to "Horse Drawn Carriage terms") section without comment. It's the "compliment" to "vis-a-vis" or face-to-face. I thought I'd discussed is in reference to traditional dance steps/calls where it's "Do-Si-Do", interpreted to mean two-by-two, but I can't find that post.
As far as those carriage styles, a book could probably be (and probably has been) written about 'em. I've chosen to leave 'em without explanation for the moment, concentrating on the more common styles (and busting my butt, trying to get my race car running and my tow car prepared.)
RtR
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I have a question for you about other open cars. It seems that most countries/languages have separate terms for cars with "roll-up" or "drop-down" side glass and those that have none, but may have used side curtains in bad weather. US usage is "Convertible" for those that have "roll-up" (yes, it has to do with the crank mechanism that one uses to "roll the window up or down") side windows and "Roadster" for cars that had no side glass. "Convertible" (or "Convertible Coupe") generally refers to a 2-door car, as does "Roadster." For cars with 4 doors, the term "Convertible Sedan" is used for those with glass windows and "Touring Car" (or just "Touring") for cars without side glass.
Now the question(s): is there an equivalent term for Italian cars of the same description? Is "Spider/Spyder" equivalent to "Roadster?" I received a reply that said "Spider" was first coined by an Irish motoring writer (I think that's the way it was stated), but seems to be pretty commonly used to describe Italian cars with no top.
The difference could be the same of "Barchetta" (no side wondows) and "Convertibile"/"Cabriolet"... "Roadster" is not an italian term, maybe a few italian cars used it but it's not italian.
The term Spider or Spyder fitted for both types, with or without side windows, but only for 2 seats cars... "Spider Sport" is similar to "Barchetta", (this last term was born in the 40s with Touring Ferrari 166MM) and it's similar also to pre-war "Torpedino" (a 2 seats Torpedo)
A lot of confusion indeed...
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I have a question for you about other open cars. It seems that most countries/languages have separate terms for cars with "roll-up" or "drop-down" side glass and those that have none, but may have used side curtains in bad weather. US usage is "Convertible" for those that have "roll-up" (yes, it has to do with the crank mechanism that one uses to "roll the window up or down") side windows and "Roadster" for cars that had no side glass. "Convertible" (or "Convertible Coupe") generally refers to a 2-door car, as does "Roadster." For cars with 4 doors, the term "Convertible Sedan" is used for those with glass windows and "Touring Car" (or just "Touring") for cars without side glass.
Now the question(s): is there an equivalent term for Italian cars of the same description? Is "Spider/Spyder" equivalent to "Roadster?" I received a reply that said "Spider" was first coined by an Irish motoring writer (I think that's the way it was stated), but seems to be pretty commonly used to describe Italian cars with no top.
The difference could be the same of "Barchetta" (no side wondows) and "Convertibile"/"Cabriolet"... "Roadster" is not an italian term, maybe a few italian cars used it but it's not italian.
The term Spider or Spyder fitted for both types, with or without side windows, but only for 2 seats cars... "Spider Sport" is similar to "Barchetta", (this last term was born in the 40s with Touring Ferrari 166MM) and it's similar also to pre-war "Torpedino" (a 2 seats Torpedo)
A lot of confusion indeed...
Thank you. While it sounds confusing, it seems to fit into the existing set of definitions fairly well.
The question still remains, "what is a convertible sedan called", that is, what's the proper name for a 4+ seater with moveable side windows?...or is that not applicable to Italian cars of the pre-WWII period?
Thanks again for your help,
RtR
Again, here's the link to the work-in-progress:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc&pli=1#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc&pli=1#gid=0)
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Thank you. While it sounds confusing, it seems to fit into the existing set of definitions fairly well.
The question still remains, "what is a convertible sedan called", that is, what's the proper name for a 4+ seater with moveable side windows?...or is that not applicable to Italian cars of the pre-WWII period?
With 4+ seats, side windows and 2 doors it's a cabriolet... but with 4 doors I think there wasn't a proper name... a Torpedo was a 2/4 doors car without side windows...
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Thank you. While it sounds confusing, it seems to fit into the existing set of definitions fairly well.
The question still remains, "what is a convertible sedan called", that is, what's the proper name for a 4+ seater with moveable side windows?...or is that not applicable to Italian cars of the pre-WWII period?
With 4+ seats, side windows and 2 doors it's a cabriolet... but with 4 doors I think there wasn't a proper name... a Torpedo was a 2/4 doors car without side windows...
Ok. I've listed it as "undefined" at the moment.
Thanks,
RtR
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Here you are few 'manufacturer-specific':
Racy/Racytype Roadster (Abbott-Detroit, Brush, Mora, Van, Velie, Yankee)
Tourabout (Acme, Alpena, American Napier, Benner, Carroll, Chadwick, Chalmers-Detroit, Cole, Crow, Cutting, Diamond T, Durocar, EMF, Enger, Gaeth, Halladay, Herreshoff, Jackson, Kearns, Kenmore, Knox, Lexington, Marathon, Marquette, Mason, Maxwell-Briscoe, Monarch, New York, Nyberg, Oldsmobile, Paterson, Pittsburg Six, Powercar, Pratt, Simplex, Steely, Stutz, Thomas, Vernon, Washington, Wayne)
Sedanet/Sedanette (Adria, King, Lexington, Standard, Stephens)
Gunboat (Allen-Kingston, Berkshire, Charhartt, Faulkner-Blanchard, GJG, Locomobile, Palmer-Singer, Thomas, WFS)
Tourster (Apperson, Cole, Kissel, Kissel-Kar, Premier, Stutz, Vernon)
..and those are only the ones I found browsing the American Cars starting with A (adding the other makers sharing the same designation)!
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Hmmm....this may be a bigger can of worms than be handled at the moment.
I don't know what you think about it, PJ, but I'm tempted to do one of two things: either put these "manufacturer specific" names into a separate file or spreadsheet for the moment or just delay that part of the project until the other parts are more or less complete.
Updated: I added another sheet to the work-in-progress at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc&pli=1#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc&pli=1#gid=0) and named it "Manufacturer-Specific" (pretty creative, huh?), then divided it into the "eras" and moved the M/S (abbreviation for....) sheet. Let's see of it works. I'll try to add your latest names to that section. Right now I'm just taking a break to catch my breath (I don't have much of it to spare) from working on my race car.
What do you think about those options or do you have another suggestion?
Thanks,
RtR
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French body style ,1930 :
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Kool! Thanks!
RtR
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...mylord...
Here one such body - truly a 'horseless carriage":
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and..
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These definitions came from Georgano's Encyclopedia.
There are more or less the ones you will find on another book (A-Z of British Coachbuilders) but there are too many pages there.
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I have both books. I suppose I should spend more time reading 'em. :) Maybe after Salt Flats season.
RtR
ps. Thanks for posting those scans. They'll be helpful here.
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I've recently stumbled across a few cars ID'd as "Toy Tonneau" types. This configurations seems to be similar to a torpedo, but with lower seats and doors. From the same period, the "double Bucket seems to a Toy Tonneua sans doors.
These two are Willys models from 1909:
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Here´s a list with all 1930 "official" body styles:
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Thank you. If I ever get back to this (meaning the little crisis I'm caught in at the moment), I do my best to incorporate it with the existing document. I can see that we're gonna need another column in the database for example photos. The fun never stops. LOL!
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Now, here is a rare bird: a Fleischerwagen (butcher's car). From Monday to Saturday it looks like a pickup (except for the side doors at the cargo bed), on Sunday you could add a rear seat and use it as a tourer.
BTW, can anyone identify that car?
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Here´s another bodywork scheme from the late 1920´s:
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Kool! I guess I otta go back and update the directory, huh?
Btw, anyone can see and update the spreadsheet. It's on Google Docs here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc&pli=1#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkSycuAZcRMedFpGOENaVEdfWk5WMUV5RWhjTFY5aHc&pli=1#gid=0)
Ohh...I have no idea what the Fleischerwagen is based on...except that it seems to have independent rear suspension (swing axle-type)...or maybe a bent wheel. ;D
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Here´s a massive german 1906 overview, I´ve put into one big image for all of you:
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I have a Universal Fisherman, has a salmon cast in the head ....but it has a timer and coil for ignition. It should be about 8hp somewhere between 600 and 1000rpm or so...here are a few pics of mine...
rh
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I can´t see any photos... :-\
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I think the most suitable picture is this:
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;)
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Coupé-Spider
this name sounds strange, but after some searches I've found something interesting. Apparently the "spider" name in the 20s refers not to the open roof but to the shape of the bodywork, with a rear tail (a 3rd box) compared to 2-box cars.
So a Coupé-Spider and a Coupé-Royal are the 3-box and 2-box version of a 2-doors/2-seats closed car.
A Cabriolet-Royal is the open 2-box/2-doors/2-seats car and a Cabriolet-Spider is the 3-box version of this open car.
The simple Spider has no side windows.
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Berlina, Berlinetta and Coupé
Another mistery is the difference between Berlinetta and Coupé, apparently two names for a 2-doors/2-seats closed car.
What I have found is that the difference should be found again in the structure of the body, because until the 50s a Berlinetta was a short and sporty Berlina, with a 2-box fastback body, and a Coupé was a 3-box car.
In fact the Coupé is the evolution of the Coupé-Spider (see previous post) and the Berlinetta is the heir of the Coupé-Royal (which is a short Guida Interna, the old Berlina).