Topic: The Final List

[faksta]

But it wasn't like this always.

[Paul Jaray]

I don't think it will be of any use to go too deep on each make, remember that there are thousands and thousands!
In my list, for example, Giugiaro is reported as a designer when I listed many Bertone's or Ghia's cars made by him and as a coachbuilder with Italdesign.
Bertone is listed only one time, with the car he designed and with the concepts he made.

[TheItalianJunkyard]

what about a structure like this:

1 - makes, here you list all makes, from companies like Fiat to a small business like BXR Motors. Evrything is listed here, individuals and heavily modified race cars as well (not all the Porsche 956 were the same after they reached each team...)
 
    -- each item in this list has its own tags, as much as it is required, like:
        --- McLaren is a racing car comany, but also a production car company, an exotic maker, etc etc
        --- ItalDesign is a coachbuilder, but also an engineering company, and a design (or concept car) company

2 - models, this is the second layer, and all models are listed here (connected to their own makes that is, depending on the structure on the archive, like subfolders if it was Windows)
    -- each of them has its own tags once again, from the years of production to the main characters behind its project, or the name os the assembly plant,etc...
        I'd tend to divide every generation since this step, as there is no relationship between a first gen Mercedes-Benz C-Klasse and the latest, no point of having them together.

3 - as the third and possibly final layer we have model years, special versions and everything that can identify say a Ferrari F430 from a 430 Scuderia (just to give an easy reference)
     -- once again, all tags that may be helpful must be filled, similarly to those found at the second layer.


So basically you'd have a huge list of all the makes, all together, but with the possibility of filtering them with the tags (and a list of the tags is mandatory of course).
Then, once you selected one specific make, whatever it is, you have another list, as large as the cars produced, designed etc etc by that make.
You can filter this new list once again with the provided tags, and find what you were looking for.
The same goes with the third layer.

On the other hand, you could start directly with the second layer filter, in case you know you're looking for something say from the seventies and american, but can't remember the make.
This way you'd have all the American cars from the seventies, and you could apply even more filters/tags while the search advances.



Thought?



   
   
   

[Paul Jaray]

TheItalianJunkyard , you make my day.

I just realized that I did not wrote here what is already done in my list:
1) The name, 2) the years and few notes about its story (previous name, merges, groups, etc...) 3) Nationality 4) the Company's name.

A & M                                    (1996-….)                                         GB   A & M Specialist Cars Ltd, Redditch, Worcestershire
A CAR WITHOUT A NAME      (1909-1909)-1909-then FAL (2)      USA   Department C, 19 North May Street, Chicago
A TO Z CAR EMPORIUM              (1994-1994)                               USA   A to Z car emporium, Davie, Florida
AAA (1)                                (1919-1922)-1922-then ELEKTRIC   GER   Aktiengesellschaft fur Akkumulatoren und Automobilbau, Berlin
AAA (2)                                (1919-1920)                               FRA   Ateliers d'Automobile et d'Aviation-paris

This is what I already have done and is the smaller part of it.
This allows you to sort them only by the years (approx) and nationality.
I have also a list of each model for each make, but it will be added at the end.

your suggestion is good, but we can't use these tags for the manufacturers.
These tags as to be linked to the specific model:
if I look for a BRAND making racing cars, I'll have all the manufacturers, as I wrote before (Fiat, Ferrari and McLaren), and if I look for a BRAND making production cars, once again I'll have Fiat Ferrari and McLaren.
If a link the 'Racing' tag to a specific MODEL, I'll find '348 Challenge', 'Fiat Mefistofele' and 'McLaren MP4\17' under the model classification and 'Testarossa', 'Punto' and 'F1 Supercar' as well with the 'Production' tag.
Your idea is the next step of this project, already in my PC but it's impossible to improve all in once.
I have a big list with all the manufacturers, and an huge list, with manufacturers with each model associated.
Before we start to give tags to each model, we have to separate the individuals from the companies and the institutes from the Racers.
Then, inside each category, we can pick brand by brand and add tags according to the models.
It's easier to do than to explain.

I'll post a part of this list soon, so you'll see what I mean:
This big list of names is useless if we can't operate some operations, and we can't just start with a deep classification, because for the more than 1000 makers starting with 'A' I have something like 6000\7000 models.
But if we divide all these 1000 manufacturers into few categories, who is an expert about racing cars will keep on adding in that field, and so on.

[DynaMike]

I must admit that I don't know anything about this kind of systems, but to me the proposal by TheItalianJunkyard  sounds very convincing. Like this you get one huge list of all makes, of whatever category, and if you only want to have makes of a specific category you can use a filter. No need to make doubles if a make could be put into different categories, and - by the use of the filter - no need to read the whole list when you can and want to restrict it to one particular category.
Maybe we'd need in the beginning a category "not-categorised yet", since you've got already a list of thousends of makes and you cannot put all of these immediately into the exact category. This can be done gradually, before or when listing the model names.

[Paul Jaray]

In few days the draft of the 'A' list of manufacturers will be ready: I'll post a link to a spreadsheet where we can decide hot to manage it.
In the meantime, I suggest to keep on choosing those tags, for the companies\individuals and the models.

[DynaMike]

Something rather different: Many infos on the internet (and in books and other publications) cannot be controlled or checked. It would be nice if the list could get some foot note system. Of course we know whose informations we can trust within our small AP-community, but with such a note system the list might grow to be a really reliable (or at least controlable) sourcse.

[Paul Jaray]

All taken into accout already.
It's funny how all of you are proceeding along the same path I did!
My idea include also a "reliability indicator", that is: together with each make, we can add the sources where we can get these info.
No one doubts that there was a company called 'AUTOCAR' active in Ardmore, Pennsylvania in 1901-1912: there are plenty of sources.
But what about the '162 GLASSFIBRE' company that is only listed in one book (The A-Z of Sports Cars)?
All the makes I listed are taken from books, magazines and encyclopedias, and with few clicks I can add their names to each make.
Then we can assume that the McFee in the "A-Z of Sports Cars" is actually McAfee or that the East Glows in Georgano's New Encyclopedia is actually a Beijing.

[TheItalianJunkyard]

Before I dig into my memories of stuff like this I studied at university a while ago (28/30 for the record  ), what system are we talking about?
I mean, is it a database (which one?), a group of folders and subfolders, Excel files?
Just to understand what we can do and what we can't do.

About the problem with companies producing ONLY race cars and companies producing ALSO racing cars.
Just give them two different tags OR different operators, like:

find RACE CAR maker but don't list PRODUCTION CAR makers.
this are the operators, THIS are the tags.

In that way you are asking the system to list all the makes which we tagged with RACE CAR, without listing those that are also tagged with PRODUCTION CAR.
Even further, adding other tags like RALLY, DTM, FORMULA 1, LE MANS etc etc we could go straight to a specific series maker, like showing Ferrari but only for what regards the Formula 1 cars without taking account of the prototypes or GT cars.

That's heavily depends on the system we are talking about though.

[Paul Jaray]

Ok, then, I'll take a step back, starting from the beginning.
I have an excel file, simple as that, no-operators or tags, just an excel file.
This file is made of 3 pages:
Pag.1
COLUMN-DATA
A-MAKER (All of them, alphabetically listed, racer designers, etc...)
B-MODEL (each the model of that given make, even the different model-years)
C-Cylinders (how many Cyl, from 1 to 32)
D-Disposition (Boxer, in-line, V, Rotor, W, Stellar, etc.)
E-Displacement
F-Max Power
G-Top Speed
H-Year
I-Kind of vehicle (Kit-car, Replica, Racer, Coachbuilt, One-off, etc...)
J-Cross Reference (A Ferrari by Vignale is also listed under 'Vignale')
K-About the model (if it has an engine by another make, if it was sold under a different make, if it's electric, steam powered, or other notes)
L-About the maker (the total years of production, if it was previously another make, if it was later known with a different name, merges, groups, etc)
M-Nationality
From N to AN, the sources, for EACH model, and if there are pics or technical details in there.

Pag.2
A legenda, with all the abbreviations of the index, and the sources.

Pag.3
A-Maker
B-Year (indicative)
C-Kind of manufacturer (indicative)
D-few notes about the make (the same of Pag.1 Col.L)
E-The full name of the company (very important when you have 10 makers with the same name).

I would like to share this with all of you, starting with Pag.3.
The list is now just an excell file, but once it will be released, we can choose the best way to edit it.
I'll post the "A" letter soon (I have to fix it because I have the few notes in Italian) and then you can thell me which database will be the best for OUR project.

[faksta]

As far as I'm aware, Excel file is not the easiest way of making an online database, as it will be very difficult to operate, if it is possible to make any filtering with them online, can't say for sure, because I'm not good in it at all. MySQL database would be better in my opinion (at least recently I figured out what it is ), but here one must have some knowledge to adjust it.

[TheItalianJunkyard]

Excel allows to insert filters and operators, they are bitches though, it is too much of a multitasking program I think.
A good step would be transferring it to Access (or whatever it is called now), but I didn't find it so easy when I used it a few years ago.

Probably Faksta's idea is a good one, and I'd say it should also be capable of importing data from Excel as Access as well.

[Paul Jaray]

I'll leave the technical issues to you know and I'll focus on completing the "A" list.
When it will be online, consider that you'll see just a list of manufacturers as well as individuals and so on.
I'll put it in a google spreadsheet, so it will be easy to copy and upload in any other program.
In the meantime, you should consider how are we going to "modify" it.
My 1st proposal was to find tags or categories, to have an useful tool in our searches.
Another task could be how shall we add the 'reliability index': another column with the references for each make?
To know how we are going to modify it, we have to answer to this question:
How are we going to use it?

[motorcar1]

Wow,
Only at A/P could one find such a work in progress.
This is a huge undertaking. I have read all the comments in this topic, perhaps all are correct in one form or the other.

Might one seperate all race cars, race designers, race engine builders etc into a whole seperate area?
This might be practical and make for easy reference for an individual that only has interest in race cars or their manufacturer's through the years, might this work ?

Perhaps a simple click of the mouse, for travel , to a catagory/area for street production versions built by the same company?

Perhaps another click of the mouse to travel to shaired engine's, in essence, so and so built engines for other race cars, click here to see a complete list of all that used/shaired this engine?

Just food for thought guys !!!
Merry Christmas to all !!!
John

[Paul Jaray]

Hi John!

my cross-reference idea works just like that, but only if the engine-provider developed also a whole car:
In my list of Lotus cars, for example, I specified when a model is equipped with a Ford engine, and there is a 'Ford' entry with all Ford's models.
But if there is acompany providing only engines, it won't be listed as a maker...but once again this will be a matter to consider when we'll decide to put also the models.

[Paul Jaray]

Update: so far my "A" list counts 1040 different makers.
I'm still working on it, but don't forget this project...

[TheItalianJunkyard]

Update: so far my "A" list counts 1040 different makers.
I'm still working on it, but don't forget this project...

Don't worry, I'm waiting for the first stint of makes so to have in front of me what we are dealing with and find some good ideas.

were yo considering connecting this names archive to a pictures archive too?

[Paul Jaray]

I'm sure the list of makers will keep us busy, if we want to make it complete and if we find a way to divide them.
The final project, (the one that is already in my PC), will be a list of all the models for all the makers and all the pictures.
This second (and final) step will be released only if the first part will take off, and probably it will take place in a different place.
But, once the list is online, it's our, and we can decide how to improve it. A good idea could be to have 1 (or few) pics for each makers (when available) just to have an idea.

[Paul Jaray]

Here we are:
This is the link to a spreadsheet with the "A" list: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AjYlJSxUWho7dGpSemJLTkswOGwxaFJHbzNDTlJmRGc&hl=en

The underlined makes are the ones I suspect to be only assemblers but since I had not the time to check, they are included.
The red entries are the ones that are not in my papers, but are available in some sources online.
All the others are featured in some books and can be checked.

Here are still missing:
many specials and racers and all the latest makes, because they are not covered in any book.
many makes available in some lists, (list of kitcars, list of buggies etc) available online because I had not the time to check them.
many makes already featured here on AP, because I still have to list them,
some of my puzzles, cause you have to find them!
the red entries on the last part of thew list because they are still too much and I'm adding them one-by one (the other list was aleady mostly done)

[Arunas]

What is an approximate percentage of non-production makes in this huge  list?

[Paul Jaray]

All the short lived makers from the 1800 till the 1930 are almost all production models, but even there are a lot of makes intended for production but never completed.

[faksta]

Impressive list indeed. You also feature bus producers?

[Paul Jaray]

No bus-producers here unless they also build cars or bodies for cars.
But keep in mind that this list was born as an index for an archive, and this archive contains what's in my books, etc.

[faksta]

I mean Ukrainian Antorus, to be precise - did they ever build anything but buses? I can't say for sure that they never did, but I have never heard about that.

[Arunas]

My little question: why some Russian manufacturers have "SU" mark (which should mean Soviet Union)