SOLVED: Djetset #669 - Ford Redwing V4 (prototype for USA)

[fyreline]

Yes, a lot of American publications called the V-4 "fan less", but that's not strictly true.

Would love to hear from Djetset if we're on the right track with this puzzle, or are we barking up the wrong tree?

[fyreline]

Just trying to keep this puzzle car on the top of the stack so it doesn't get lost . . . again, are we on the right track that this is, in fact, a yet-unidentified specific version of the car we think it is (The Ford Cardinal/Taunus 12M/P4)?

Or do we have the wrong car entirely?

[D-type]

I wonder ......

Could this one be badged as a Mazda?  Or is this before the Mazda connection?

[fyreline]

This all took place in the late 1950s - very early 1960s timeframe, which I believe predates any Ford/Mazda connection. I've been scouring the web and my own library for any additional insight into the Ford Cardinal project, and I haven't found a name for this car that hasn't been mentioned yet.

But, as I always say, the search is at least half of the fun - and if it was easy, it wouldn't be on Autopuzzles!

[Djetset]

Gosh, as mentioned in the Slow Answers section, I was away from my PC for most of the recent Festive season, so I'm only just catching-up now on my puzzles.  Fyreline is on the right lines with this being a proposal for the North American markets (big clue), but none of the names given so far apply to this Ford pictured.

Oh, and by the way, the USA didn't quite escape the German-built Ford V4 engine, as this powered a number of the Saab 96s, 95 Wagons and 97 Sonnetts sold in the United States, where they proved to be quite reliable (once the Swedes had sorted out some of the engine's problems, just as they did with the Ricardo/Triumph motor in the Saab 99 too) 

[qwaszx]

and the V4 was also used in the mid-engined Matra M530 because of its short length...

[WayneB]

Ford Condor ?

[fyreline]

Hmmmm. The statement that the puzzle car "Was a proposal for North American markets" points either at Canada or Mexico. Canada ended up getting the US Ford Falcon, rebadged as the "Frontenac", so I tend to think that the same reasoning that caused Ford USA to favor the new Falcon over the P4 Taunus would preclude their bringing it to Canada - hence the Frontenac. I suppose it's possible that Ford originally considered importing the P4 Taunus to Canada and calling IT the Frontenac . . . But I haven't found any reference to that yet. So how about Ford of Mexico?  Haven't found anything yet - and still haven't given up completely on Canada, either - and so the search continues.

I did find one reference to this design as the NPX-C5, but that was while it was still under initial development in Germany, so I don't think that's it.

[WayneB]

As far as I know  the Frontenac was only sold as a Mercury here in Canada, but they were assembled in a Ford Plant in Oakville Ontario.

[fyreline]

That's correct (as far as I know), the US Ford Falcon-based Frontenac was a one-year-only offering through Canadian Mercury dealers. Although a 1961 Falcon-based Frontenac prototype was built, in the end Ford Motor Company decided to switch to the same Comet sold by American Mercury dealers in 1961.

Still lookin' for that Canadian or Mexican Ford Cardinal!

[Djetset]

Gosh, what I thought was quite a straight forward puzzle has generated rather more debate and speculation than I ever imagined!

To help ease your research (fyreline and others) this car was planned for the US market (not sure about Canada though) but had no Mexican connection.  Happy hunting! 

Oh, and on the matter of the grotty Cologne Ford V4 used in the Saab and Matra (I've owned both a Saab 96 V4 and Matra M530 LX, so can personally vouch for this being a really rough old engine) both Saab and Matra originally planned to use Lancia's lovely little V4 from the Fulvia, but the Italians wouldn't shift on price (which was way too high) so the Ford lump was chosen instead.  What a shame, as the Fulvia engine would have transformed the way the Saabs and Matras drove (although it wouldn't have improved the M530's 'distinctive/ugly' styling!).

[qwaszx]

as a kid I thought the M530 was awkward eeeeeh but french yes. seen from this century I thnk its sleek tapered silhouette is very daring still and yes: nouveau. not so awful after all. intricate yes.

[WayneB]

Ford Futura?

[Djetset]

Sorry, but it's not a Futura.  Perhaps Ford Frustration would be a better name! 

[WayneB]

Was the intended name used on a later Ford car?

[fyreline]

[To help ease your research (fyreline and others) this car was planned for the US market (not sure about Canada though) but had no Mexican connection.

That's certainly interesting. It's well-documented that the puzzle car was originally developed for the US market under the name "Cardinal", when the plug was pulled at the 11th hour and the design sent to Germany. So Ford intended to sell the car as something else? That's a truly great puzzle, and something not mentioned anywhere I have seen. I look forward to seeing the answer, but meanwhile I'll keep looking.

And I certainly agree . . . What a wonderful change the Lancia-sourced V-4 would have wrought, particularly in the Saab. Too bad.

[Djetset]

I think the Pros will resolve this one quite quickly...

[WayneB]

Was the intended name used on a later Ford car?

Yes or No?

[Djetset]

Oophs, sorry Wayne, I missed your question.  The answer is no, the name was not used on any other Ford model, AFAIK.

[WayneB]

Ford Harrier? (I know the name was used on a Ford GB Escort model in the 80's)

[Djetset]

Not Harrier.

[D-type]

Was this branded as something other than Ford, ie did it's name not include Ford?

[Wendax]

The picture shows how the Cardinal would have looked in U.S. trim. It would have been marketed as the Redwing V-4.

[Bill Murray]

Rather quickly as I am leaving the house for a few hours.

Turkish Anadol-Ford?
Edit:  Parent company was Otosan.

Bill

[Allan L]

The picture shows how the Cardinal would have looked in U.S. trim. It would have been marketed as the Redwing V-4.

Should have been "Red Hat" surely?!
I'll get my coat . . .