AutoPuzzles - The Internet's Museum of Rare Cars!

Puzzles, Games and Name That Car => Solved AutoPuzzles => 2020 => Topic started by: Paul Jaray on February 18, 2016, 04:09:26 AM

Title: Solved -PJ716 - Mario Grassi in a Fiat 500 spider Zagato at the 1938 Parma-Poggio di Berceto
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 18, 2016, 04:09:26 AM
I know where this picture was taken, but not the year.
I have a generic name for it but I'm looking for more.
1 point if you can identify this racer.
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: targhediferro on February 18, 2016, 09:51:27 AM
Well, the easy part is that it's a Fiat 500 A based car, probably with a Siata modified engine....
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 18, 2016, 11:47:54 AM
Quote from: targhediferro on February 18, 2016, 09:51:27 AM
Well, the easy part is that it's a Fiat 500 A based car, probably with a Siata modified engine....
Actually I have 2 names for this (like Maker-Maker) and none is Fiat.
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: targhediferro on February 18, 2016, 05:04:19 PM
Mmm.....wheels are Fiat 500...perhaps a firm that used Fiat parts?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: ropat53 on February 18, 2016, 09:25:16 PM
Simca 5? But would be very strange with Milan license plate? ???
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 19, 2016, 01:22:02 AM
I thought it was a Siata of some sort but the caption says something different.
The names I have are not Fiat or Simca or any etceterini's.
I am sure of the event.
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: oko94 on February 19, 2016, 11:55:44 AM
An event that took place in Italy I guess ?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: thorax on February 19, 2016, 12:53:38 PM
is the car Italian?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 19, 2016, 02:24:07 PM
yes and yes.
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: thorax on February 19, 2016, 06:06:10 PM
Om?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 01:42:54 AM
much known and both still active...
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: oko94 on February 20, 2016, 02:47:42 AM
Lancia-Abarth ?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 02:52:56 AM
no & no.
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: oko94 on February 20, 2016, 03:31:44 AM
Alfa Romeo - Giannini ?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Wendax on February 20, 2016, 03:41:00 AM
Maserati-Benelli?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 06:08:06 AM
you both are half right.
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: oko94 on February 20, 2016, 06:09:10 AM
Maserati-Giannini ?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 06:22:36 AM
still half right...
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: oko94 on February 20, 2016, 06:34:38 AM
Alfa Romeo-Maserati ?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 06:51:03 AM
Yes, Alfa-Maserati is the name I have.
When (I don't know) and where (I do) was this picture taken?
Who built it (I don't know)?
Still much to do for this Pro-point.
No locks, it was pure blind guessing, so far ;)
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: oko94 on February 20, 2016, 07:48:51 AM
Quote from: Paul Jaray on February 18, 2016, 04:09:26 AM
I know where this picture was taken, but not the year.

Quote from: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 06:51:03 AM
When (I know) and where (I don't) was this picture taken?

Make up your mind  ;D
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 07:56:53 AM
Quote from: oko94 on February 20, 2016, 07:48:51 AM
Quote from: Paul Jaray on February 18, 2016, 04:09:26 AM
I know where this picture was taken, but not the year.

Quote from: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 06:51:03 AM
When (I know) and where (I don't) was this picture taken?

Make up your mind  ;D

Fixed  ;D
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 07:58:38 AM
This picture was taken at the start of an Italian event. I don't know the year it took place, but the event it's not totally and terribly obscure.
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Iluvatar on February 20, 2016, 12:22:53 PM
Quote from: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 06:51:03 AM
Yes, Alfa-Maserati is the name I have.
When (I don't know) and where (I do) was this picture taken?
Who built it (I don't know)?
Still much to do for this Pro-point.
No locks, it was pure blind guessing, so far ;)
I don't know this car... but Alfa-Maserati sounds really strange for such a small car... how can an Alfa or Maserati engine fit in that car?? ???
The shape of the bonnet and the general proportions are that of a sporty Topolino (maybe by Zagato).
But being on AutoPuzzles... nothing is what it seems to be! :D


Edit: as already stated by targhediferro...
Quote from: targhediferro on February 18, 2016, 09:51:27 AM
Well, the easy part is that it's a Fiat 500 A based car, probably with a Siata modified engine....
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Iluvatar on February 20, 2016, 12:33:14 PM
Quote from: Iluvatar on February 20, 2016, 12:22:53 PM
I don't know this car... but Alfa-Maserati sounds really strange for such a small car... how can an Alfa or Maserati engine fit in that car?? ???
The shape of the bonnet and the general proportions are that of a sporty Topolino (maybe by Zagato).
But being on AutoPuzzles... nothing is what it seems to be! :D
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 12:45:35 PM
Thank you Iluvatar, when I saw that pic, I knew it looked familiar. I thought the caption was wrong too, because it doesn't look like any of the Alfa or Maserati based special I ever seen.
I saw those many little differences between all the pictures but it's always like that with special...or does it mean that the car was heavily modified with Alfa or Maserati bits?
I think the event will clarify it...I couldn't find an entry list for that, but to be honest, I didn't search for too long...
The point is still out there for the final piece of the puzzle, where and when was this pic taken?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Iluvatar on February 20, 2016, 12:50:05 PM
Quote from: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 12:45:35 PMor does it mean that the car was heavily modified with Alfa or Maserati bits?
Unlikely... I cannot imagine even a 1100cc Fiat engine fitted under that Topolino bonnet... (with a proper radiator to cool it) ;)
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Iluvatar on February 20, 2016, 12:50:49 PM
Quote from: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 12:45:35 PM
The point is still out there for the final piece of the puzzle, where and when was this pic taken?
Pescara?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: nicanary on February 20, 2016, 12:57:42 PM
Could it be that the "Maserati" part of the caption refers to the driver? It's not an uncommon name in Italy. Quite where the "Alfa" fits in is anybody's guess!
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 01:53:05 PM
Not Pescara.
I'll add the caption soon.
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: nicanary on February 20, 2016, 02:33:24 PM
Is it Syracusa?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 20, 2016, 02:53:30 PM
Not there.
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: thorax on February 22, 2016, 06:08:24 AM
Mantova?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 22, 2016, 06:20:33 AM
Much closer...
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: targhediferro on February 22, 2016, 06:53:06 AM
Cremona?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 22, 2016, 07:08:35 AM
Go south and you'll hit the track!
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: thorax on February 22, 2016, 07:45:09 AM
Parma-Berceto?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 22, 2016, 07:59:27 AM
That's the race.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: thorax on February 22, 2016, 08:29:46 AM
1931-1932 maybe the year?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 22, 2016, 08:32:07 AM
I don't know.
I hope somewhere will be a list of cars racing that particular edition of the Parma-Poggio di Berveto and #26 will reveal the nature of this car...
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: nicanary on February 22, 2016, 08:35:30 AM
The "usual" site is a bit lacking in information. I would put the car as nearer 1937/39 or even post-war. In the 1938 there was a Fiat Siata Zagato bodied car which also has the name Ghiringhelli. This name means nothing to me, but maybe it was a tuning firm?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 22, 2016, 08:42:37 AM
Bingo! I had a Ghiringhelli Topolino in my archive!
EDiT: that was #74 and was a coupe.  :-\
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 22, 2016, 08:48:25 AM
...but probably you are not far off.
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: nicanary on February 22, 2016, 11:14:23 AM
The class winner in 1938 was Franco Spotorno, and he drove a car which fitted this puzzle. However images i have found of his car show it to be unpainted (easily changed) and with the licence plate in a different place (easily changed).

I know his car was called a "tank" which a fixed-head coupe would not, and I know it had this Zagato type body - cycle wings were banned for the Italian national championship.

Is it him?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Iluvatar on February 22, 2016, 02:33:23 PM
Quote from: nicanary on February 22, 2016, 11:14:23 AM
The class winner in 1938 was Franco Spotorno, and he drove a car which fitted this puzzle. However images i have found of his car show it to be unpainted (easily changed) and with the licence plate in a different place (easily changed).

I know his car was called a "tank" which a fixed-head coupe would not, and I know it had this Zagato type body - cycle wings were banned for the Italian national championship.

Is it him?
Spotorno's car is the last in my previous post, with number 24 at the 1938 Mille Miglia.
Other differences are: the windshield and the headlights position. This last one is the heaviest difference and I believe this could be a different car.
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: nicanary on February 22, 2016, 03:02:06 PM
Whoops! I must learn to read all posts!
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on February 23, 2016, 06:20:12 AM
I hope I will able to find more about  the Parma-Poggio di Berceto races of those years. I have a pic of a Topolino by Ghiringhelli in the '37 edition, but that was a simil-standard closed model #74.
If the car in '38 is the one in nicanary's pic, it's not that either...
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: faksta on March 18, 2016, 06:24:21 AM
I would suggest that the 'MI' on the license plate means Milan, if that helps?
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on April 05, 2016, 11:19:11 AM
To sum up:
This picture was captioned as an "Alfa-Maserati" in an article about the Parma-Poggio di Berceto.
The event is the only part I'm sure of.
You know where (Parma-Poggio di Berceto) but not exactly when...but you do have a race number (#26) and some good leads (Ghiringhelli, Spotorno...). There is also a good book about that race and someone can stumble upon the right page...
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on August 24, 2016, 07:59:17 AM
I'll move it soon if there won't be updates...
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on August 24, 2017, 02:40:46 PM
Let's see if there are new ideas..
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Iluvatar on June 23, 2020, 07:41:42 AM
Time to solve this one...  ;)
Parma-Poggio di Berceto 1938 - Mario Grassi - Fiat 500 spider Zagato - 2nd in class 750
Title: Re: PJ - 716 - Open to ALL
Post by: Paul Jaray on July 02, 2020, 09:35:39 AM
Very good! I did not forgot about this...the opposite!
I collected, with another fellow Autopuzzler, a dozen of cars like this and we are going to investigate all those plates to finally determine which chassis are they.
In the meantime, we can move this one to solved. The caption was obviously wrong and this is one of the Topolino Zagato Team.
I'll update once I'll have more info ;)