Topic: To bring more movement into the puzzle process

[Carnut]

There you go - one obscure puzzle straight into the masters section...

 

[Carnut]

1) Answer to:
Puzzlers have been banned for life for doing exactly that!  That might be a very noble decision, but only means one more less player

No, it means one fewer cheat.

2) Answer to:
I don't want to start imposing conditions, i.e. certain players must post a new puzzle if they earn a point.
I can hardly find any new puzzles anymore...

If you would have read my proposals carefully, this regulation wouldn't affect you for a very long time. It would only take effect for all players having scored more than 750 points. And I know, they would do that with pleasure. See 'Wendax's', 'pnegyesi's', etc. great responsibility for the survival of this site.

I read your post very carefully. Of course I know it would never apply to me, but I'm answering from the point of view of the site and its players not from my own point of view. If I find it very hard to find appropriate puzzles I'm pretty sure others do too.

3) Answer to:
Rather than change and over-complicate everything I'd like to see new puzzles posted in the Masters' section (perhaps by other Masters but anyone could) and say only Masters can answer them. Same could also happen for Professionals, with only Pro's able to answer.

Herewith we leave the path of the democratic attempted solution process completely! We are forming a two-class or three-class rate puzzle-community
For example: What would 'sichel' think about, if the 'Pro-and-Master-High-Society' would slip puzzles to themselves, which he -as the 'little' Expert- could easily solve, but should not be allowed to?

This would only create the same rift between the current puzzle friends, that is currently practiced by politics between vaccinated and unvaccinated people

That's silly.
We already have plenty of puzzles that most members cannot participate in, so there's nothing new except there would be more puzzles that Pro's and Masters could participate in.
I just don't get your point about vaccinations I'm afraid, but I sincerely hope you don't mean the discussion is only an attempted democratic solution if all your own proposals are accepted en bloc.

[fromwien]

One can discuss objectively and constructively, or act in an emotionally destructive manner. The latter leads to the downfall of the site for sure

1) Puzzlers have been banned for life for doing exactly that!  That might be a very noble decision, but only means one more less player..
No, it means one fewer cheat.
Is someone a really bad boy/girl, who tries to find an unusual way to take part in puzzles, as he/she finds almost no options to do that, because of inadequate out of date rules? I don't see that as emotional as you. More than an expression of a way out of helplessness.

2) Answer to:
I don't want to start imposing conditions, i.e. certain players must post a new puzzle if they earn a point.
I can hardly find any new puzzles anymore...

If you would have read my proposals carefully, this regulation wouldn't affect you for a very long time. It would only take effect for all players having scored more than 750 points. And I know, they would do that with pleasure. See 'Wendax's', 'pnegyesi's', etc. great responsibility for the survival of this site.

I read your post very carefully. Of course I know it would never apply to me, but I'm answering from the point of view of the site and its players not from my own point of view. If I find it very hard to find appropriate puzzles I'm pretty sure others do too.

Me too, always have my thoughts and ideas focused on the site and its players. And I agree with you, that it is very hard to find appropriate puzzles. But exactly these Master-players, I focused on, are these people, who already provide us with a lot of great puzzles! (Wendax, pnegyesi, Oguerrerob,..). And I believe, they enjoy it. Or not?

3) Answer to:
Rather than change and over-complicate everything I'd like to see new puzzles posted in the Masters' section (perhaps by other Masters but anyone could) and say only Masters can answer them. Same could also happen for Professionals, with only Pro's able to answer.

Herewith we leave the path of the democratic attempted solution process completely! We are forming a two-class or three-class rate puzzle-community
For example: What would 'sichel' think about, if the 'Pro-and-Master-High-Society' would slip puzzles to themselves, which he -as the 'little' Expert- could easily solve, but should not be allowed to?

This would only create the same rift between the current puzzle friends, that is currently practiced by politics between vaccinated and unvaccinated people

That's silly.
We already have plenty of puzzles that most members cannot participate in, so there's nothing new except there would be more puzzles that Pro's and Masters could participate in.
I just don't get your point about vaccinations I'm afraid, but I sincerely hope you don't mean the discussion is only an attempted democratic solution if all your own proposals are accepted en bloc.

Your answer makes me so speechless and stunning, that I just want to go into it briefly:
It's completely different to deny rookies and experts the participation in all present puzzles than to give experienced players (Pros, master) a smaller playing room.
I don't want to comment your last sentence

Please excuse the unseemly interruption on the way to demise.
The sinking of the unsinkable Titanic went down in history, the once proud 'AutoPuzzles'-site will soon be remembered by few

As long it lasts, I will enjoy it

[Carnut]

We obviously have differing views on progress, but these are all just the ideas of 2 people and there's no point in arguing with each other.
What we need is more ideas/proposals/comments from others.

I would just say though that the idea that it's OK for a puzzler to change his name then start again from the Rookies with 0 points is immoral. That really isn't a way to take the site forward.

Await other opinions.

[nicanary]

The reason this site appears to be stagnant is that there are only a limited number of people in the world who are totally obssessed with all things automotive. We have many, many new members who join and are never seen again - they think they know a lot about cars and then find they are out of their depth. People get bored if they cannot achieve what they thought was a simple task. I joined AP as a person considered by everyone who knew me as the "car-mad" guy, only to find I actually knew very little.

The site does not progress simply because I think it has achieved its plateau. I expect numbers to rise to maybe 2500 eventually and then level out. There really aren't that many potential members out there, and even fewer who will last the course. Its a very specialised site.

When we established the Masters section there was no dissent from those who were affected, even though they had virtually nothing to play with. It's accepted that if you have proved your credentials, that in itself is like being honoured. Members like Wendax continue to take a very active role, and enjoy finding new puzzle subjects.

It's a democratic site - always open to valid suggestions and progressing through majority consent.  However, when changes are offered there is usually a deafening silence, even from some of the editors. I think we can say that AP members are very conservative in their views. Not radicals by any means. Any changes suggested are going to have to be mighty good ones!

[Carnut]

Thanks nicanary. I agree completely.

I think you're right that we've reached a plateau, but I think one of the reasons the membership changes and a lot of the longer-standing members disappear is that the content has inevitably changed so much over the years.

When I first joined, longer ago than I care to remember, there were pages and pages of fairly rare and very rare, mostly post-war, cars to mull over and investigate. That interested a lot of people in those days and there were regularly 40 or 50 on site at once.

Now that thousands and thousands of cars have been puzzled and are on our database (so far nearly 36,000 topics have been posted) there are far fewer unpuzzled rarities to post and the offerings have changed so much that it's dominated by veteran and vintage cars, commercial vehicles, buses, motorcycles and mechanical bits.

That's going to interest far, far fewer people and I have to say pre-war cars don't interest me a great deal.

The site has reached its plateau because nearly all the accessible cars and those that interest most car enthusiasts have been puzzled.
Quite where we go from here I don't know. We can tinker with it eternally but nothing is going to change the fact that without all those cars being puzzled like there used to be we are not going to interest a massive number of people.

[FrontMan]

I should not really be here. There's so much to do in the garage! Consider me to be the champion of the lazy and the bewildered;...for instance I have failed to find guidance on how to proceed after having posted a new puzzle. I am not "computer literate". Nonetheless, AP has become addictive, and, from reading earlier comments, it looks like we should be classed as a protected species.

I have a handful of potential puzzles which I would gladly contribute to a "pool" into which our glorious leaders could go fishing as and when the need arises. Personally, puzzle points do not rate highly, unless they can be converted into spark-plugs or gasket material;...but I envisage a point (or a sichel Bee) being awarded to a donor in the event of usage. Perhaps such a holding facility would encourage some of the "over-night visitors" to persevere a liitle or a lot longer. Even the rookiest of Rookies is likely to have some knowledge and evidence of matters undreamt. I suspect that we are throwing gold down the drain as we revel in our own collective brilliance

Peace to All.     

[fromwien]

I would like to remind again on my suggestion for improvement of August 22, 2021:
The situation, as it is:
1) Almost no new puzzle has been solved in the 'rookie category' for months.
2) The puzzles slowly move into the 'Experts-category', where they remain until they are solved or forever.
3) There is no movement in the 'Professionals- and Masters-category'.
4) 65 puzzles out of a total of 96 puzzles in the 'Professionals-category' are my own puzzles. Exactly 31 puzzles that correspond to my level of knowledge remain to be guessed for me..

I just want to remind you again that without more movement, the site will have no future.
However, there will be no shortage of a number of new puzzles. I could guarantee for that. Thousands are left

[fromwien]

Rookie-section: 105 topics, only 11 replies from interested players..

[oko94]

4) 65 puzzles out of a total of 96 puzzles in the 'Professionals-category' are my own puzzles. Exactly 31 puzzles that correspond to my level of knowledge remain to be guessed for me..

Why don't you move your oldest professional puzzles to the Masters-category ? When a puzzle spends more than 6 months without any guess it's more than time to move it up IMHO.

[Wendax]

 

[fromwien]

4) 65 puzzles out of a total of 96 puzzles in the 'Professionals-category' are my own puzzles. Exactly 31 puzzles that correspond to my level of knowledge remain to be guessed for me..

Why don't you move your oldest professional puzzles to the Masters-category ? When a puzzle spends more than 6 months without any guess it's more than time to move it up IMHO.

Awaited this comment:
1) Only 16 of my 126 (!) active puzzles are older than half a year, since last guess!
2) Please check carefully 'Rookie-, Experts- and Professionals-sections' for puzzles of other players, to find much more older puzzles than mine. Over one or two years old.
3) Personally I will feel very pleased, to get the opportunity, guessing on more than four of your puzzles. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a single one. At least, five of my puzzles are available for you to guess in the Masters category. +500%!
4) Returning to realism and objectivity could be very useful for the site

[Wendax]

At 1) So why don't you move them?
At 2) Should that really be an excuse?
At 3) 5 more than 0 is not +500 %  (5 more than 1 would be)

[Carnut]

I know my main problem and I think it must also apply to others, esp. Pro's and even Experts, many of whom have abandoned the site.
I don't get the chance to play any more as the puzzles I know the answer to either get solved before they reach the Pro's or they never reach the Pro's as they get stuck in the Rookies and/or Experts.
I don't know the answer to any of the puzzles in the Pro's section; hence I can't get involved.
When that happens people lose interest completely, as many of the original stalwarts have.
It's not actually a requirement for puzzles to start in the Rookies then move up board by board unless they are solved. I used to have a time limit of 2 weeks in the Rookies and 4 in the Experts, in order to keep them on the move. But that doesn't seem to happen much any more and they get stuck in the Rookies.  There are puzzles in the Rookies that I know, of course, but they seem to have been there forever and I'm not sure their puzzler has the intention of ever moving them up. There's nothing to stop puzzlers posting puzzles straight to the Pro's or any board they want. That might at least give some players who haven't been Rookies or Experts for about 12 years to get involved.
Sorry to say but apart from looking at new puzzles every day to see what people are finding, I have had no involvement in the game for a very long time now. In its current format it's not really open to me.
As the site is registered in my name I pay the fees and keep it going as I still think it's the best site on the www by a long way. But I don't play it any more.

[kwgibbs]

Hello carnut, I agree with you about the pros knowing the answer,s of the rookie section that never reach the pros.I do know alot of the answers of the rookie section but never get to solve them,believe me Im not complaining or anything like that.I still play but not quite as much,I,ll never give up autopuzzles though.Lknow you guys will figure some solution for this situation.thanks.

[nicanary]

I'm with Carnut on this one. I do wish people would promote their puzzles after a certain time rather than forget about them.

[fromwien]

At 1) So why don't you move them?
At 2) Should that really be an excuse?
At 3) 5 more than 0 is not +500 %  (5 more than 1 would be)

For sure, I can understand that you only deal with the Masters section, but:
1) I try to democratically distribute my 126 active puzzles evenly so that each group has about the same number of puzzles to solve. It just doesn't succeed in the Professionals category, which is constantly undersupplied with puzzles (where most of my puzzles are located!)
2) There are three times as many puzzles in the Masters category as in each of the other ones!
Yes, these puzzles may need much more time to get solved than most other ones. But sorry, this will be the challenge for the Masters! Not waiting for easily edible fresh meat, like hungry sharks.
3) Mathematically absolutely correct (+ one point), but did you get the point of this comment (- one point?)?

[Carnut]

It just doesn't succeed in the Professionals category, which is constantly undersupplied with puzzles (where most of my puzzles are located!)

That's because nobody knows the answers and puzzles only get there anyway because no Rookies or, more pertinently, Experts know the answers.
Ergo, it's no fun for the vast majority of Pro's any more...

[Wendax]

If the dormant pro puzzles were easy to solve, they wouldn't have stayed there for months without a guess. I think there are just two of which I think to know the solution of. It is just the matter of making the game extra boring for the Masters when hardly any pro puzzles find their way up. Maybe you will be able to understand that when you have reached Master level.

As far as I can see you started this thread with the following post:

What do you think about of limiting the maximum time a puzzle to stay in each category?
For example:
Rookie section: max. 4 weeks
Expert section: max. 6 weeks
Professional section: max. 8 weeks
or
Rookie/Expert/Professional: each max. 4 weeks
or
Rookie/Expert/Professional: each max. 3 weeks
or
Rookie/Expert/Professional: each max. 2 weeks

I think, such a limit may bring more movement into the puzzle process, and helps to keep the game participants more attentive to what is happening and to get all of them into the course of the game. As I have to notice by myself sadly, the 'Professional' category is always the one with the fewest rate on puzzles. I get more and more uninterested to follow this nice site, as I have very rarely the opportunity to take part of the game

Too bad your proposal doesn't meet up with your deeds.

[fromwien]

I completely understand your situation. I experience the same in the Professional category since a long time.

I think it isn't really fair to point out my 18 months old proposal, which has been rejected in the following conversation in this thread.
If it doesn't seem too bad after all, why not tell all players about it or set up the site, that it works automatically (which seems technically feasible but time-consuming).

Do you really think it's necessary to deal personally, when it comes to the leisure activities of a few interested people who are looking for fun and enjoyment in their fields of interest?

My focus is on the matter, and the lively participation in this thread shows that the few players are obviously very interested in the fact that more movement is coming into play.

If I would had acted according to my proposal alone and not all other players, we would now have around 30 puzzles in the Professional section and 100 more puzzles in the Masters section.

[Wendax]

I can't see what would have been wrong with that. But just feel free to proceed as you like, chacun à son gout.

[fromwien]

Then easily Professional- and Masters sections could get merged. With only 30 puzzles, the professional section is completely uninteresting and unnecessary. Perhaps the best solution with such few active players

[nicanary]

Then easily Professional- and Masters sections could get merged. With only 30 puzzles, the professional section is completely uninteresting and unnecessary. Perhaps the best solution with such few active players

It was my suggestion to create the Masters section, and to be honest I have had regrets ever since. The problem is that the present Masters are really very very good and used to solve most of the Pro puzzles so quickly that average members didn't get a chance to ask questions. For those Masters who enjoy seting new puzzles that was fine, but for some others it leaves them very little of interest on the site. One Master now spends his time solving Balck Hole stuff.

[fromwien]

Then easily Professional- and Masters sections could get merged. With only 30 puzzles, the professional section is completely uninteresting and unnecessary. Perhaps the best solution with such few active players

It was my suggestion to create the Masters section, and to be honest I have had regrets ever since. The problem is that the present Masters are really very very good and used to solve most of the Pro puzzles so quickly that average members didn't get a chance to ask questions. For those Masters who enjoy seting new puzzles that was fine, but for some others it leaves them very little of interest on the site. One Master now spends his time solving Balck Hole stuff.

I personally believe, you had quite a very good idea and the right decision has been made at this time, as there were many more players active. If I checked correctly, now around 4 Masters and 5-6 Professionals are regularly guessing at this site

[pnegyesi]

When I met fromwien in February, I told him I have some ideas. Well, I still have some ideas but I am not managing my time very wisely (let's put it that way) so AutoPuzzles is not at the forefront at the moment.

I think
- we would need to talk to those who quit in the last 5 years and ask them - why they left? If they are like Carnut, then we have a problem, but let me get back to that
- The site floats around aimlessly. I believe the lack of an editor (coming back to that in a minute) means that the site is a bit stuck.
- I believe it's very difficult for newcomers to realise what's going on.
- We would need somebody (preferrably not me, because that would be a bit tragic) who could spend, let's say 1-2 hours a week with the site. Update the front page, make our social media platforms more exciting (post some puzzles there, don't let anybody comment, but encourage them to visit the site).
- once we did all of this, then we could have a social media campaign to invite people, like we are far better than any pub quiz

Okay, this was me, very quickly. Dissect it freely