AutoPuzzles - The Internet's Museum of Rare Cars!
Puzzles, Games and Name That Car => Solved AutoPuzzles => 2023 => Topic started by: BERTRAND on November 13, 2023, 08:10:06 AM
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Identify this race car, please
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expert
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To eliminate the obvious: Cooper?
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not cooper
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A Formula Junior Gemini?
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not a Gemini, not a Formula Junior
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down under
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What do you mean, knewit
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"Down under" is British slang for Australia and New Zealand.
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https://www.youtube.com/embed/XfR9iY5y94s?si=C0ptP5VIWA1p0zbt
;D 8)
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ah ok understood. Yes, it's from down under
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a 50 - 50 Jocker
Australia
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Nothing to do with Austin Miller's Climax Special ?
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no but I help you, Climax is correct
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An Elfin-Climax?
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not Elfin
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Mildren - Climax?
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well done. Mildren Climax is correct. Give me the model name, please. I locked the puzzle for you, D-type
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I didn't know the Mildrens being essentially one-off conversions or creations had names. The only one that comes to mind is the Mildren Mono.
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after further investigation, you are right, it is not the model that has a designation but the engine. Therefore you have the point D-type
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The puzzle photo appears to be a monochrome copy of an advert for the car being sold by an Australian racing car sales specialist. The original car F2-22-59 was fitted first with a Maserati 250S engine and later a Maserati T61 engine before the engine and suspension were used to build a sports car by Rennmax. The chassis was dumped on a local authority tip.
Which begs the question - what the heck is this? It seems that somebody built a "new" Cooper chassis with a fibreglass body and installed a Climax FPF engine, and then said it was Alec Mildren's car. It was never raced with a 2-litre engine, although the Mildren family did own a 2-litre T45 Cooper, but this claims to be a T51.
I suspect that yet again another historic car surfaces which is not quite what it appears to be. Sorry to be a pedant.
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I think, the picture of the puzzle car originates from an ad with following text (and picture):
Make: Cooper Climax
Model: Type 51
Year: 1959
VIN / Engine Number: FPF.430/27-1243
The Mildren Cooper Climax Type 51, never previously offered for sale but after almost 40 years of ownership, imminent retirement from racing forces it's sale.
Type 51 Cooper with 4 wheel disc brakes, 4 coil suspension and a two litre short stroke Mark 2 Climax FPF motor make this a very competitive package.
The car has important racing history established in the early 1960s and raced at some Australian International events. A similar ex Mildren Cooper was placed fourth at the recent Goodwood Revival meeting.
It holds Group Lb Historic lap records at Winton, Eastern Creek, Wakefield Park, Amaroo, Oran Park plus Grafton and Mt Cotton hillclimbs with geriatric driver so there is plenty of potential there for a more enthusiastic operator.
Naturally it has a CAMS Certificate of Description certifying it's provenance. At A$165,000 it is far less than similar cars being offered overseas.
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Thanks fromwien. It's got a CAMS certificate so maybe I've misunderstood something. My information came from a well-known website which specialises in motor sport in Australasia (begins with a P) which had an article about the Mildren family.
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To avoid misunderstandings 'nicanary', me too think that the car's history isn't as clear as it looks like. I also believe more another source, wich seems to be far more reliable. Furthermore it seems we both mean the same website (begins with pe...).
I only want to add the chassis number once again with the first owner of the car: 1959 Cooper Type 51, Chassis Number F2-22-59, delivered October 1959 to Alec Mildren, Australia (less engine)
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What makes me real headache, I think to remember that all the T51 from 1959 ran a transverse leaf spring-rear suspension, except Moss' Walker-Cooper at the US-GP. Usually coil-spring-rear-suspension was used with the next model, T53 from 1960
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What makes me real headache, I think to remember that all the T51 from 1959 ran a transverse leaf spring-rear suspension, except Moss' Walker-Cooper at the US-GP. Usually coil-spring-rear-suspension was used with the next model, T53 from 1960
The Mildren T51 definitely had transverse leaf suspension when fitted with the Maserati T61 engine.
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after wikipedia, there is wikifromwien :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: your knowledge is impressive
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Thank you very much for the kind words. But I would like to point out that all too often mistakes can be found at 'wikipedia'. Which of course happen to me also. Maybe I've some knowledge about post-war motorsport present, but the pre-war cars still remain as my eternal Achilles heel ;)
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Thank you for the point.
Hmmmm! That seller's history is highly dubious:
- As far as I know the CAMS certification process is very strict, applying the criterion: "As it was - so it must be" pedantically. I cannot see them accepting a fibreglass body when the Cooper T51 had an alloy body.
- I have never heard of a Mark 2 FPF Climax 2 litre engine.
The original FPF engine was a 1.5 litre engine. The 2 litre FPF was an enlargement of the original 1.5 litre FPF with both bore and stroke increased. The Mark 2 FPF was an improved version of the original 1.5 litre FPF for the 1961 F1 season as an interim measure while Coventry-Climax developed the V8 engine. It had essentially the same bore and stroke as the original (different websites differ by fractions of a millimetre) but incorporated the developments made to the 2.5 litre versions in the 1959 and 1960 seasons, which were mainly changes to the top end.
- As engines were regularly swapped around between cars in period, and the likes of Hall & Hall and Repco have produced continuation versions, the engine number is no proof of originality.
So what is this car really? An Australian-built replica or re-creation of Alec Mildren's T 51 Cooper with an incorrect 2-litre FPF Climax engine and incorrect rear suspension. But as Mildren regularly modified his cars, it might have taken this form at some stage (apart from the fibreglass body.). I suppose Mildren Cooper-Climax is as good a description as any, but I would put it in quotation marks, ie "Mildren Cooper"- Climax.
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The Climax-FPF-engines (Coventry-Climax book):
FPF mark 1
81.2 mm x 71.1 mm = 1,475 cc
86.4mm x 83.8 mm = 1,960 cc
1x overbored, 2,015 cc engine for Rob Walker
4x 88.9mm x 88.9 mm = 2,207 cc
FPF mark 2
94.0 mm x 89.9 mm = 2,495 cc
81.8mm x 71.1 mm = 1.5 litre
14x 2.7 litre even bigger bore & longer stroke
In total 273 FPF engines of 9 different capacities - 159x 1.5 litre, 48x 2.5 litre
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Like 'nicanary' and 'D-type' I have my doubts that the puzzle car is Alec Mildren's 1959 Cooper Type 51, Chassis Number F2-22-59, delivered October 1959 to Australia less engine.
Why didn't the seller use the VIN (F2-22-59) as a identity verification in his ad? Only mentioning the Coventry Climax engine number?
Of course I see the possibility, that Alec Mildren bought a spare chassis sometimes. And in later times, a complete Cooper has been built around this. Should have happened sometimes.. There were some Cooper T51's around, racing in 1959 season, without a Cooper-VIN, based on delivered chassis' with parts supplied by Hollyfield Road.
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here is the sales ad for the car
The Mildren Cooper Climax Type 51, never previously offered for sale but after almost 40 years of ownership, imminent retirement from racing forces it's sale.
Type 51 Cooper with 4 wheel disc brakes, 4 coil suspension and a two litre short stroke Mark 2 Climax FPF motor make this a very competitive package.
The car has important racing history established in the early 1960s and raced at some Australian International events. A similar ex Mildren Cooper was placed fourth at the recent Goodwood Revival meeting.
It holds Group Lb Historic lap records at Winton, Eastern Creek, Wakefield Park, Amaroo, Oran Park plus Grafton and Mt Cotton hillclimbs with geriatric driver so there is plenty of potential there for a more enthusiastic operator.
Naturally it has a CAMS Certificate of Description certifying it's provenance. At A$165,000 it is far less than similar cars being offered overseas.