AutoPuzzles - The Internet's Museum of Rare Cars!
Puzzles, Games and Name That Car => The Brand-New 2025 Vehicle Identification Board => Topic started by: mekubb on May 14, 2013, 06:32:31 PM
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I have very little information about this car, just the make and a year. So 1 point if you have this right and an extra point if you can proof the model and coach builder
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Jaguar xk 120 based?
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No Jaguar connection that I know off
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Early Turner ? They all had different bodywork.
I've changed my mind. That looks like a Continental hillclimb start - the car behind has what may be German plates. RHD could be British base or Italian. The car looks like a re-bodied pre-war model, especially with the high seating position. Alfa Romeo ?
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Not an Alfa. You may be right that the car is a re-bodied pre-war model, I have the same feeling. But I really don't know !
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Those wheels are huge - I reckon it could be vintage. Alvis ?
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Not an Alvis according to my source
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I'd better start again. Is the base car British ?
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Not British at all...
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Italian base car ?
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Not an Italian base
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If it's possibly pre-WW2 and not British or Italian, then maybe it's French ?
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French it is indeed....
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Talbot-Lago ?
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Not a Talbot-Lago
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Delage ?
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Not Delage either....
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It looks quite large, so there isn't much left. Delahaye ?
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Not a Delahaye sir....
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Salmson?
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Not Salmson
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Talbot
Delage
Delahaye
Salmson
Peugeot?
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Talbot
Delage
Delahaye
Salmson
Peugeot?
Not Peugeot either
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Amilcar ?
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Hotchkiss?
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Not Amilcar nor Hotchkiss.... What's left ? ???
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Talbot
Delage
Delahaye
Salmson
Peugeot
Amilcar
Hotchkiss
It doesn't look like one, but is it a Bugatti?
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Talbot
Delage
Delahaye
Salmson
Peugeot
Amilcar
Hotchkiss
It doesn't look like one, but is it a Bugatti?
Yes Bugatti it is ! Quite a special one I must admit. Locked for you to come with the right year. And an extra point if you know the coach builder (I don't)
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The chrome decoration on the front wings shows this was not an out and out racing car but a road car competing in a minor event - maybe a hillclimb.
At a guess it is a rebodied type 53 four-wheel-drive car.
If I'm wrong, please unlock it as I'm just guessing.
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I don't know the type, just that it's a Bugatti and the year. But if you take '53 as year ;) then you are a couple of years out, so one more guess for you !
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53 was the type number.
For a date I'll guess at 1949
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D-Type, I've just sent you a PM.
I can't get it out of my head that it looks like a young Jack Lemon Burton at the wheel. The moustache and general "joie-de-vivre" looks for all the world like a British driver - many British and American military staff got hold of exotic European sports cars just after the war and took them home. Maybe this is Germany or Austria.
I've just been through the Bugatti archives to look at every chassis recorded for the sort of car it could be, but there's nothing. So it's a rebody without doubt. I reckon it's a 57S or 57SC for what it's worth.
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53 was the type number.
For a date I'll guess at 1949
1949 is the right year, so a point for you. I know 53 is the type number but I tried to help saying that if 53 was the year that it was too young.
D-Type, I've just sent you a PM.
I can't get it out of my head that it looks like a young Jack Lemon Burton at the wheel. The moustache and general "joie-de-vivre" looks for all the world like a British driver - many British and American military staff got hold of exotic European sports cars just after the war and took them home. Maybe this is Germany or Austria.
I've just been through the Bugatti archives to look at every chassis recorded for the sort of car it could be, but there's nothing. So it's a rebody without doubt. I reckon it's a 57S or 57SC for what it's worth.
The only thing I know is that the pic was taken during a speed challenge, probably in Switzerland. I would be very interested to hear who was responsible for the bodywork, a Swiss coach builder or may be a fine home-made job ? I will leave the topic in the Pro section, may be they can help
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I think it is unlikely to be a Type 53 - only three were built, and it was specifically a car for racing and hillclimbs. It had 4-wheel drive and was notoriously difficult to steer. It would not have made a pleasant road car. The steering wheel position on the puzzle car is very high, and I'm sure that this is an earlier road car which has been rebodied in a more modern style, but has retained the existing running gear which has resulted in the driver sitting very high up on the chassis.
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The car behind looks like a 1.5-liter AFM. We could follow two strings then. I'd make two suggestions coming from that. First is that the event, given the year, was likely to be held in Germany due to the fact that until 1950 German drivers were banned from racing abroad (Hans Stuck drove an AFM abroad under the Austran license, but his car was a single seater AFAIK). Second, the Bugatti was probably of around the same engine displacement to be able to compete with that AFM. My choice woud be T40 probably, but that's a pure guesstimation so far.
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I have another idea now, though. As far as I understand, this AFM might be the car sold to Swiss Peter Hirt for 1949, therefore making it possible that this is a start of a Swiss hillclimb indeed or some international event.
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I have another idea now, though. As far as I understand, this AFM might be the car sold to Swiss Peter Hirt for 1949, therefore making it possible that this is a start of a Swiss hillclimb indeed or some international event.
It certainly looks a lot like the ex-Falkenhausen car. I have taken up enquiries with the Bugatti Trust, and hope they don't mind me bothering them. We may have an answer in the near future - on the other hand they might think I'm a crazy stalker and ignore my e-mail.
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Hillclimbs in Switzerland in 1949 that I could find online are these:
20.03.1949 - Passwang (won by a production Ford, though...)
20.06.1949 - Rheineck - Walzenhausen - Lachen
17.07.1949 - Develier - Les Rangiers
24.07.1949 - Freiburg / La Sonnaz
13.08.1949 - Gstaad
21.08.1949 - Maloja Pass
Might have been more.
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Not Hillclimbs ,but " flying kilometers " !
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They were referred to as 'bergrennen', weren't they? ???
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I have found the original pic including the Swiss licence plate (attached), may be someone has access to the Swiss register. BL stands for Basel-Land as far as I know. Furthermore the photo is said to be taken during a 'Kilometre lancé' or 'Fliegende Kilometer' somewhere in Switzerland. And the body might be from a Swiss company or individual, but this is just a good guess.
All in all quite an intriguing car, would love to hear its history.
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Looks quite similar to the starting place of Alstetten-Schlieren events which I could find.
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The Bugatti Trust have e-mailed me to say that they can't access the image - I thought guests could see these, but maybe it's because it's in the Experts section. This could all end in failure !
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The Bugatti Trust have e-mailed me to say that they can't access the image - I thought guests could see these, but maybe it's because it's in the Experts section. This could all end in failure !
I have sent you a PM with the pic, may be you can forward it to the Bugatti Trust ! Thanks !
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I have just heard from the Bugatti Trust - it's not good news, since they could find nothing in their photographic and written archives. I have thanked them on behalf of the Autopuzzles Forum for their efforts. This could be a Black Hole candidate.
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Thanks for your effort ! I will keep it in the Pro section for a while and finally Black Hole... (hope not though)
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Heading for the Black Hole....
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Can anyone tell me more about this car ? I had it as a puzzle a while ago and it is still intriguing me. According to my source it is a Bugatti taken during a Swiss hill climb event in 1949. It doesn't really look like a Bugatti, but of course you never know. I believe it is coach built looking at the quality of the body work. Any ideas ?
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Can anyone tell me more about this car ? I had it as a puzzle a while ago and it is still intriguing me. According to my source it is a Bugatti taken during a Swiss hill climb event in 1949. It doesn't really look like a Bugatti, but of course you never know. I believe it is coach built looking at the quality of the body work. Any ideas ?
In my records I've a Bugatti bodied by Pattaro & Pesce from Mirano (Varese, very close to Switzerland) and shown at the Lido di Venezia concourse d'elegance in 1950. Could be this car? Does anybody know more?
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Can anyone tell me more about this car ? I had it as a puzzle a while ago and it is still intriguing me. According to my source it is a Bugatti taken during a Swiss hill climb event in 1949. It doesn't really look like a Bugatti, but of course you never know. I believe it is coach built looking at the quality of the body work. Any ideas ?
In my records I've a Bugatti bodied by Pattaro & Pesce from Mirano (Varese, very close to Switzerland) and shown at the Lido di Venezia concourse d'elegance in 1950. Could be this car? Does anybody know more?
Interesting, do you have a pic of your car ?
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Can anyone tell me more about this car ? I had it as a puzzle a while ago and it is still intriguing me. According to my source it is a Bugatti taken during a Swiss hill climb event in 1949. It doesn't really look like a Bugatti, but of course you never know. I believe it is coach built looking at the quality of the body work. Any ideas ?
In my records I've a Bugatti bodied by Pattaro & Pesce from Mirano (Varese, very close to Switzerland) and shown at the Lido di Venezia concourse d'elegance in 1950. Could be this car? Does anybody know more?
Interesting, do you have a pic of your car ?
Unfortunately not. However, Auto Italiana records it as a "coupe". so I'm not so confident that Pattaro & Pesce's Bugatti can actually be the one in your picture, but it's strange to have two newly coacbuilt Bugattis close to Switzerland in the same moment... I hope some Bugatti expert can help us.
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Can anyone tell me more about this car ? I had it as a puzzle a while ago and it is still intriguing me. According to my source it is a Bugatti taken during a Swiss hill climb event in 1949. It doesn't really look like a Bugatti, but of course you never know. I believe it is coach built looking at the quality of the body work. Any ideas ?
In my records I've a Bugatti bodied by Pattaro & Pesce from Mirano (Varese, very close to Switzerland) and shown at the Lido di Venezia concourse d'elegance in 1950. Could be this car? Does anybody know more?
Interesting, do you have a pic of your car ?
Unfortunately not. However, Auto Italiana records it as a "coupe". so I'm not so confident that Pattaro & Pesce's Bugatti can actually be the one in your picture, but it's strange to have two newly coacbuilt Bugattis close to Switzerland in the same moment... I hope some Bugatti expert can help us.
And that's the problem. I've sent a photo of the mystery car to the Bugatti Trust Archives, and they don't know anything about it. They have very complete records of all chassis made, and what happened to them, and they still cannot help to identify it. It makes me wonder whether it's actually a Bugatti, or whether it has been incorrectly captioned on the photograph.
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Graber, Hess, Mose or Regazzoni?
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As mentioned earlier, unfortunately I don't know who is responsible for the coachwork.
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mekubb, can I share the picture with some people and on some forums? I have some ideas on how to identify this.
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mekubb, can I share the picture with some people and on some forums? I have some ideas on how to identify this.
Yes please do, it would be great if we can finally find out more about this car.
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According to a Swiss expert the photo was taken at the 1949 Develier - Les Rangiers Hillclimb (Bergrennen), which was held on 17 July, 1949. Entrant is one A Ley from Basel with a "Bugatti 2300 K" as confirmed by Automobile Revue.
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Another photo from the 1949 race - the same fence is clearly visible
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Entry-list hillclimb-race Develier-Les Rangiers 1949
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I suggest it's a Type 35B then. 2300cc and K standing for Kompressor. Very well done Pal and thanks to fromwien for the entry list.
(Interesting to see Otterino Volonterio on the list, also in a Bugatti. I wonder how slow he was.)
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Results hillclimb-race Develier-Les Rangiers 1949
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Thanks fromwien. I have my answer. He was about a minute slower than Willi Daetwyler in his class, but actually faster than our puzzle car! Always famous for his enthusiasm but ineptitude in F1.
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So we have the model (Type 35 B) which leaves the coachbuilder to be found.
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So we have the model (Type 35 B) which leaves the coachbuilder to be found.
I have been to the usual site for this information, and there are several builders in the Basel area, but no mention of this car.
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Thank you gentlemen for all the information ! To be honest, I wonder if the puzzle car is a Bugatti at all, despite what my source mentioned back then. Unfortunately the entry list doesn't mention the race numbers. like 90 on the puzzle car.
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Thank you gentlemen for all the information ! To be honest, I wonder if the puzzle car is a Bugatti at all, despite what my source mentioned back then. Unfortunately the entry list doesn't mention the race numbers. like 90 on the puzzle car.
I am very interested in this car and did some additional steps. We'll keep you informed
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I still have no idea about this car and want to share some of my thoughts together with you:
1) The Bugatti 35 front axle shows usually a dramatic positive camber. The puzzle car not really
2) Small wheels with small offset let me think about Bugatti
3) It looks a little bit too wide to me for a Bugatti 35
4) If the cars are lined up in order of the entry list at the starting grid, the car behind the puzzle car is the right one
5) If 'BL' on the registration plate stands for 'Basel', it should be the Ley-car
6) The body lines show similarities with Jaguar XK120
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Thank you gentlemen for all the information ! To be honest, I wonder if the puzzle car is a Bugatti at all, despite what my source mentioned back then. Unfortunately the entry list doesn't mention the race numbers. like 90 on the puzzle car.
I contacted the local vehicle registration office - if the Italian records have been kept, maybe the Swiss too. But unfortunately they did not find any documents on this car. I still have some ideas :)