....and finally, identify the marque of this sports car and the size of engine it was fitted with.
If you can tell me who built the body there may be an extra point on offer (I don't know the coachbuilder)
Apologies for the poor image - it's the only one I have.
Expertise required on this one
Alvis?
British ?
Allard ?
The base car is not British and therefore it isn't an Allard.
It's possible that the body is from the UK but I can't confirm that.
French?
Italian base car ?
Fiat ?
cisitalia?
Right hand drive...hmmm...perhaps a Lancia Augusta?
Ferrari?
Not a Lancia or a Ferrari
Siata ?
what's left?
Alfa Romeo?
Not a Siata or an Alfa Romeo......
OSCA?
Moretti?
Maserati ?
Siata?
Not Siata or Moretti - BUT it is a Maserati.....
LOCKED for mekubb to provide the engine size (that's the only other thing I know about it at the moment)
Well, I have to guess the engine size. Couldn't find the car in the Orsini-Zagari book, could be a pre-war chassis with a post-war body. So let's go for 1500 cc
Quote from: mekubb on February 16, 2013, 08:43:01 AM
Well, I have to guess the engine size. Couldn't find the car in the Orsini-Zagari book, could be a pre-war chassis with a post-war body. So let's go for 1500 cc
I believe the car was converted from a pre-WW II racing car in the 1940s/50s.
The engine is quite a bit larger than 1.5-litre though........
Have another try......
When not a pre-war 1500 engine, it could also be a 3 litre or 3,7 litre engine. I guess 3 litre ???
Quote from: mekubb on February 16, 2013, 10:11:51 AM
When not a pre-war 1500 engine, it could also be a 3 litre or 3,7 litre engine. I guess 3 litre ???
Close enough for you to gain a point - it's 2.9-litre according to my source - see below
Although I've moved it to the Solved section, there is still another point on offer if someone can provide more information (inc. coachbuilder)
Thanks for the point Malcolm. I would be very interested to hear the history of this car, so may be you should leave it in the Expert or Pro section to see if anyone can come up with the coach builder / history. Header : 'Maserati 2.9 litre Sports + 1 more point waiting' or something like it
Quote from: mekubb on February 16, 2013, 11:49:41 AM
Thanks for the point Malcolm. I would be very interested to hear the history of this car, so may be you should leave it in the Expert or Pro section to see if anyone can come up with the coach builder / history. Header : 'Maserati 2.9 litre Sports + 1 more point waiting' or something like it
I don't think I have the means to move it back again...... :-\
Quote from: woodinsight on February 16, 2013, 02:00:36 PM
I don't think I have the means to move it back again...... :-\
I've moved it back to the Pro's for you; let me know if that's not what you wanted!
It's quite sure that the car has been assembled in England, in the fifties; I find it very similar to Alvis TA14. Is it possible that some parts of that car has been used?
Quote from: Carnut on February 16, 2013, 02:57:32 PM
Quote from: woodinsight on February 16, 2013, 02:00:36 PM
I don't think I have the means to move it back again...... :-\
I've moved it back to the Pro's for you; let me know if that's not what you wanted!
Perfect - thanks Carnut!
Quote from: targhediferro on February 16, 2013, 04:34:55 PM
It's quite sure that the car has been assembled in England, in the fifties; I find it very similar to Alvis TA14. Is it possible that some parts of that car has been used?
I'm quite sure that's the case.....
I agree there is a similarity to the Alvis but I'm not sure if an Alvis body was used or whether it was built specifically for this car.
Now it's back in the Pros again perhaps we'll find the true story behind this interesting car!
I'll do some digging in my library to see if it's mentioned somewhere back in that period.
The Wilson preselector gearbox also suggests that this car was built in Britain.
Quote from: D-type on February 17, 2013, 05:11:43 AM
The Wilson preselector gearbox also suggests that this car was built in Britain.
Well spotted Duncan - I'm sure there's quite a history behind this car......
There really can't have been that many 2.9s in this country during that period. I recall Bira and Whitney Straight driving them (maybe it was the same car!).
It strikes me that someone made it into a road car using a body off ,say, an Alvis or Turner, and since then it's been put back to the original now that values are so high. At the time it would just have been an old racing car.
Now I'm a Pro I have time on my hands - none of the frenetic scramble to answer quickly before anyone else !
I've been thinking about this one. The engine is 2.9 litres, which suggests either an 8CM3000 or an 8CTF. The latter car was very much a monoposto, and went on to success at Indianapolis, but the former was effectively a "production" racer, and was available, more to the point, in two chassis widths, 620mm and 850mm. The latter size was extremely amenable for conversion to two-seater format.
In 1933 the British-domiciled American amateur Whitney Straight ordered 3 Maserati 8CM cars from the works, one of which was to be of the wider size. The interesting thing is that he arranged for Thomson & Taylor at Brooklands to carry out some engineering alterations to the cars, which included fitting pre-selector gearboxes. (Doug Nye states in a brief resume of these cars that they were Armstrong-Siddeley 'boxes, not the Wilson mentioned in the "ad"). In fact only 2 cars were delivered on time, and he was later provided with his third car which turned out to be an ex-Nuvolari works racer which had been refurbished (typical of Maserati shenanigans).
The wider-chassised car was #3012. A similar car #3013 was delivered to Lord Howe. This was crashed by a later owner and the remains were recovered and restored to original in recent times. However, Straight's car #3012 WAS bodied as a two-seater sports car for the road, albeit in typical pre-war cycle-winged form. It no longer exists - all that is known is that it was broken up post-war. I'm working on the premise that this puzzle car was bodied in the UK in typical early-50s style, converting what was an old-fashioned design into something more streamlined and in the modern fashion. It's what happened to a lot of old cars, even what are now considered historically important and valuable racers.
So I can't answer the puzzle, but I'm inclined to think it is Whitney Straight's chassis #3012 which was always a road car, and was modernised after WW2 by a new owner. There were no other Maseratis made with that engine size, and I really can't believe that a second-hand car dealer would go to the bother of importing a car from the Continent just for resale. The car must have already been in the UK, which makes it almost certainly one of Straight's cars.
Quote from: nicanary on July 10, 2013, 05:40:18 AM
Doug Nye states in a brief resume of these cars that they were Armstrong-Siddeley 'boxes, not the Wilson mentioned in the "ad").
The term "Wilson gearbox" is a generic description rather than a specific maker and Armstrong-Siddeley made preselector gearboxes using Wilson patents.
Quote from: Allan L on July 10, 2013, 05:53:02 AM
Quote from: nicanary on July 10, 2013, 05:40:18 AM
Doug Nye states in a brief resume of these cars that they were Armstrong-Siddeley 'boxes, not the Wilson mentioned in the "ad").
The term "Wilson gearbox" is a generic description rather than a specific maker and Armstrong-Siddeley made preselector gearboxes using Wilson patents.
Good point. Thank Allan. (I'm still digging on this one)
OK. I was wrong. I'm pretty sure it was the Lord Howe car #3013, which was ,as I said, a wide-chassised car.
He raced the car, followed by Cholmondeley-Tapper and then Archie Hide, who crashed the car badly at the Nurburgring in 1938. He kept the remains over WW2, and then they were purchased by Kenneth McAlpine who was racing Whitney Straight's narrow-chassis #3011. He used the wreck as spares for this car.
In 1951 the wreck was bought by Brian Finglass who built a sports-car in the modern style on the chassis. It was bought off him by non other than Gavin Maxwell, author of "Ring of bright water", and later was owned by Lord Ridley, who fitted the engine from #3011. Later still the car was re-matched with the correct engine and converted back to original pre-war form by Bill Summers and David Black. It is presently with a German collector AFAIK.
The car built by Finglass was advertised in Motor Sport magazine in March 1955, as being deep-red, having a large grille with an XK120-type windscreen, and long-range driving lights. In my opinion this matches the puzzle car. I don't know where the puzzle photo was located - Finglass' address was London W11. I don't suppose we'll ever find out who the coachbuilder was - Brian Finglass was a well-known dealer in racing and sports cars, but I doubt he did the work himself.
Phew !
Quote from: nicanary on July 10, 2013, 05:40:18 AM[...] The latter car was very much a monoposto, and went on to success at Indianapolis, but the former was effectively a "production" racer, and was available, more to the point, in two chassis widths, 620mm and 850mm. The latter size was extremely amenable for conversion to two-seater format. [...]
The 850mm chassis was introduced to fit the 1934 "750 kg Formula" regulation:
Quote from: www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/
The main requirements of this formula were:
1. The weight of the car without driver, fuel, oil, water or tyres should not exceed 750 kg.
2. A minimum bodywork width of 850 mm at the driving seat. (Note 2)
3. Free choice of fuel.
4. All races must be over a minimum distance of 500 kilometers. (Note 3)
The same happened with the widened 1934 Alfa Romeo P3.
Just to confuse matters more, I have read on the pages of the "Gavin Maxwell Society" that his car was from 1936 and had been driven by Whitney Straight. Maybe they are adding 2 and 2 to make 5, or Brian Finglass told Maxwell this when selling it to him. I still think it's Howe's car.
Still doesn't answer the question - who built the body? Most coachbuilders build to a commission order, or as an example of their work for a show. I reckon Finglass had a small-time bodyshop make this up from what they had available and it's not a "coachbuilder's job" as we know it. Will we ever find out ?
I'm still digging on this one, and may possibly be able to shed further light on the car. I do not wish to broach site protocol, but it would really help to have a date for the advert that forms the puzzle subject. This may lead to corroboration of facts and data.
Woodinsight will be back on site in another week or two.
Quote from: Carnut on July 20, 2013, 06:56:15 PM
Woodinsight will be back on site in another week or two.
Thanks. I've missed him - he and I share a common interest in certain cars and eras.
In anticipation of the OP returning to action, I thought I would let him know what very little I had found. There is a forum of which I am an inactive member, which comprises a number of very well-informed and knowledgeable motor-sport historians. There is an old thread on that site about Maserati 8CM cars, and also a sort thread about what is commonly known as "the Finglass car". I resurrected that thread to ask questions about our puzzle photo, which is why it would be good to know the date of the advert. I centred my enquiry around the fact that the car was being sold by Finglass in 1955, but our puzzle vendor is a Mr. Salmon.
I received only one reply on the thread, but it WAS from a well-known and respected author of Maserati-themed books. He advised me that, to the best of his knowledge, the conversion to road car had been started by Salmon and finished by Finglass. That is all, as they say. Still no nearer to finding out who did the bodywork, but personally I'm convinced it wasn't done by an established "name" in coachbuilding, but rather it was farmed out to a local bodyshop.
I thought you might like to see the car as it is today. Bear in mind that it was delivered to Earl Howe as a "wide" 2-seater chassis, and presumably painted by him in his regular racing colours of pale blue and silver. It has been "restored" as a single-seater and painted a very dark blue. I suppose the meaning of restoration has very wide parameters.
Thanks for the update, hope we will find the coach builder some day !
Well done Nicanary, you've put a lot of work into pinpointing the actual car so I'm giving you a point for that.
Unfortunately I didn't keep track of which publication or date that I found the photo in. I'll no doubt come across it again in time.
I'll keep the puzzle open here in the pros and offer a further point if anyone can come up with the coachbuilder.
Once again, thank you for a point when, in fact, I had not solved the puzzle! I suspect this is one for the Black Hole in due course, as the chances of finding that elusive coachbuilder are slim. As a hint, if anybody has a comprehensive history of Maserati 8CM cars, there's probably an appendix at the back illustrating the historical ownership and modifications of each of the cars built. Sadly, my library is lacking in that department - such books are usually too expensive for my purse.
Now moving this one to the BH with hope that it will be solved one day.......
Apparently RGN Salmon comissioned Roland Dutt to convert the car into a road car. Dutt was a (very) minor face in the 1940s-50s club racing scene who was usually behind the wheel of a Maserati. He later founded a track driving school and then disappeared into obscurity. I'm not sure if it was his very own hands that carried out the rebodying but it was most likely undertaken in his workshop. Not sure if that is worth a point, or if it just confuses the matter further by adding yet another name to the saga. ho hum.
Here you are a short story of this car by Mr. Brian Finglass himself:
This is the ex Earl Howe 2.9 Maserati, purchased by Finglass after the war with 'an ugly two-seater body' fitted.
This body was reputed to have came off an Alvis roadster. The car was later sold to Gavin Maxwell. The car was already fitted with a pre-selector gearbox when it was sold to Mr. Maxwell.
There is renewed correspondence on another website about this car. Somebody who owns an Alvis TB14 chassis has what he believes is the body from the Maserati. The two items will not match up - the wheelbase is different.
Not important information, but interesting.
Quote from: nicanary on July 10, 2013, 06:37:25 AM
I'm pretty sure it was the Lord Howe car #3013, which was ,as I said, a wide-chassised car.
He raced the car, followed by Cholmondeley-Tapper and then Archie Hide, who crashed the car badly at the Nurburgring in 1938. He kept the remains over WW2, and then they were purchased by Kenneth McAlpine who was racing Whitney Straight's narrow-chassis #3011. He used the wreck as spares for this car.
In 1951 the wreck was bought by Brian Finglass who built a sports-car in the modern style on the chassis. It was bought off him by non other than Gavin Maxwell, author of "Ring of bright water", and later was owned by Lord Ridley, who fitted the engine from #3011. Later still the car was re-matched with the correct engine and converted back to original pre-war form by Bill Summers and David Black. It is presently with a German collector AFAIK.
The car built by Finglass was advertised in Motor Sport magazine in March 1955, as being deep-red, having a large grille with an XK120-type windscreen, and long-range driving lights. In my opinion this matches the puzzle car. I don't know where the puzzle photo was located - Finglass' address was London W11. I don't suppose we'll ever find out who the coachbuilder was - Brian Finglass was a well-known dealer in racing and sports cars, but I doubt he did the work himself.
Phew !
Quote from: nicanary on September 18, 2013, 06:49:55 AM
I thought you might like to see the car as it is today. Bear in mind that it was delivered to Earl Howe as a "wide" 2-seater chassis, and presumably painted by him in his regular racing colours of pale blue and silver. It has been "restored" as a single-seater and painted a very dark blue. I suppose the meaning of restoration has very wide parameters.
Why are you convinced this was originally a wide-chassis car?
Early photos:
1936-37, T.P. Cholmondeley-Tapper at the wheel
1936 Donington Park, T.P. Cholmondeley-Tapper (dark color, #12)
1937 Brooklands, T.P. Cholmondeley-Tapper (dark color, #9)
1938 German GP Nurburgring, Arthur Hyde (dark color, #36)
Maserati archives say it was, that's why! It may have been bodied in the 1930s as a monoposto, but it's possibly got a chassis configuration that would enable it to take a wider body.
I really don't know any more. I know Whitney Straight had both types, but according to records chassis #3013 was sold to Howe as a wide-chassis car, which is why it was easier to rebody as a road car post-war.
PS I realise now what you're saying. I suggested that it's been restored incorrectly as a single-seater, when it was just that in period. I can be a bit too quick suggesting things sometimes!
Quote from: nicanary on November 15, 2016, 01:59:42 PMQuote from: gte4289 on November 15, 2016, 01:27:17 PMWhy are you convinced this was originally a wide-chassis car?
Maserati archives say it was, that's why!
Then at best, I think that makes it
more likely than not the case (until further evidence is/was revealed, of course). :)
Anyway, I've one more thing to add (I'm using your quote, but I
swear I'm not picking on you)...
Quote from: nicanary on July 10, 2013, 06:37:25 AMIn 1951 the wreck was bought by Brian Finglass who built a sports-car in the modern style on the chassis.
In a March 1977 letter to MotorSport Magazine (http://media.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/march-1977/full/52.jpg), Finglass stated that the car was already wearing the Alvis body when he bought it:
Here's a picture of the body few yers ago from a friend of mine. The rear is pretty much Alvis too:
Moved from Black Hole
Is this not solved? Or as solved as it can be? We've identified the chassis (and its history), the people who built it and the presumed origin of the bodywork... I don't know what more there is to say about it now.