Solved - NEH 3070: Touring-bodied Frazer-Nash with Bristol engine at Geneva Show 1948

[Carnut]

What's this and when and where was this picture taken, for 1 point?:

ANYONE FOUND GIVING ANSWERS OBTAINED BY USING GOOGLE SEARCH BY IMAGE MAY BE BANNED FOR AN INDETERMINATE PERIOD!

[Carnut]

Experts?

[mekubb]

BMW related ?

[Carnut]

BMW related ?

Connected, yes, but it's not a BMW.

[Iluvatar]

It's a Bristol by Touring, from Geneva 1948!

[Carnut]

It's a Bristol by Touring, from Geneva 1948!

It's a Bristol, but not by Touring (AFAIK) and not from 1948; nor was it shown at Geneva!
Since it's fairly obviously a Bristol I won't lock it yet..

[Iluvatar]

Maybe it's the Frazer-Nash (chassis 421/E2) with Bristol engine (n.1056) and Touring Spyder body?

[Iluvatar]

[...]not from 1948; nor was it shown at Geneva!

This picture from Geneva Motor Show (I have it as 1948) showes what it looks to be the same car...

[Carnut]

I agree it does indeed look to be the same car, although the description of it on the website you got that picture from is different from the description as I have it.  On there it says, as you wrote, it's a Frazer Nash with a Bristol engine and Touring body, which is not what it says elsewhere!

The puzzle picture also looks like Geneva, but the car isn't in the same place on the stand as it is in your picture (or in the other picture posted below of the Bristol stand at Geneva in 1948).

When I found this picture there was very little information about the car so I thought if I wanted to post it here I needed to find out more, so I researched it as much as I could.  I found certain information out about it written by a guy who seemed to know what he was talking about, and it describes exactly where it fitted into Bristol's production and plans.  I don't know whether it's right or wrong, but it seems plausible.

For the sake of this puzzle let's assume he was right, so I still need to know what model he says this is.  Incidentally he even gave the name of the current owner of the car, which still exists!  That's if it's the right car...

Locked for you therefore to see if you can find what I did, then after that we'll decide who's right and who's wrong!

Oh, and the puzzle picture isn't reversed as it looks like it might have been if taken at the same '48 Geneva Show, as the writing you can see in it is the right way round, and it's RHD in all the pictures anyway!

[Carnut]

Looking further into it I don't think my source is right...!

[Iluvatar]

Looking to the puzzle picture I see there is a car behind the puzzle car with a cover with the name "Renault"... and the Renault stand at Geneva 1948 is just behind the Bristol stand... (see the last picture)  ;)
I'll look for more infos...

[Iluvatar]

From Negri Foundation - Carrozzeria Touring pictures...
Roadster su telaio Frazer-Nash 2000 eseguita per lo Scià di Persia

[Iluvatar]

I've found a site with your puzzle picture... but there's nothing written about the car...

[Iluvatar]

From Negri Foundation - Carrozzeria Touring pictures...
Roadster su telaio Frazer-Nash 2000 eseguita per lo Scià di Persia

Same picture can be found in the Touring Superleggera website

[Carnut]

I've found a site with your puzzle picture... but there's nothing written about the car...

Yes, I know - you've really got to dig to find it!
I note the caption for your other picture calls this a Frazer Nash too!  The plot thickens..

[Carnut]

Maybe it's the Frazer-Nash (chassis 421/E2) with Bristol engine (n.1056) and Touring Spyder body?

Maybe this is right.
I had it as a Bristol with BMW 328 engine!
I found a site where there was a thread on this car, and an authorititave-sounding guy said:

"It is actually a (Bristol) 400.  Before the main production (which began with chassis 100), Bristol built 4 copies, 1-4 chassis.  The first is still owned by Bristol Cars. No 2 no longer exists.  Nos 3 and 4 took the form of convertibles, only built by Bristol before the 402.  I had the pleaseure of driving No 3, and the car in the photo is No 4, currently owned by Andrew Blow."

It also said on the site that this car was on show at the Frankfurt IAA in 1951.

It just goes to show that you can't believe everything you read on the net!

I think it's time to give you your point and call this one solved.

[Iluvatar]

On the Andrew Blow site there is the story of the restoration of a factory built Bristol 400 cabriolet, 1 of 2 produced and showed at Geneva 1947... obviously with BMW engine...
Maybe the "authorititave-sounding" guy had a little confusion between this car and the Touring one...  ;)

[Iluvatar]

From the Andrew Blow site:

The picture shows one of the two 1946 Bristol-bodied 400 Cabriolets (on left) and one of the four 1949 Farina-bodied 401 Cabriolets. (Note there were also 2 Farina-bodied 400 Cabriolets, similar but not identical to the photo shown).
[...]

      Chassis type        Description                                   Number known   Chassis number(s)

      400                      Bristol-bodied Cabriolets                           2            3 & 4
      400                      Farina-bodied Cabriolets                           2            102 & 181
      400 (probably)     Langenthal-bodied Cabriolet                    1             not known
      400 (probably)     "Van den Plas" - bodied sports                 1             not known

[Iluvatar]

The two Bristol 3 & 4 together...

[Iluvatar]

"It is actually a (Bristol) 400.  Before the main production (which began with chassis 100), Bristol built 4 copies, 1-4 chassis.  The first is still owned by Bristol Cars. No 2 no longer exists.  Nos 3 and 4 took the form of convertibles, only built by Bristol before the 402.  I had the pleaseure of driving No 3, and the car in the photo is No 4, currently owned by Andrew Blow."

After further research I can say that the full story is indeed right... the only problem is that the car is the cream Bristol 400 cabriolet and not the Touring Frazer-Nash... the guy was a little bit confused...  ???

[Carnut]

Great - so we got it right in the end!
But how could anyone confuse that rather ugly Bristol with the quite beautiful Touring F-N?!  Or maybe it was that red 401 he was thinking of, which I suppose could be possible to confuse it with 60 years on..

[D-type]

I think it's simply the tangled history of the 3 marques.  Prewar Frazer Nash marketed the BMW 328 as a Frazer Nash or a Frazer Nash - BMW.  Postwar they also rebadged a 'liberated' Mille Miglia BMW as a Frazer Nash 'Grand Prix'.  In parallel, Bristol acquired the rights to the BMW design and the 400 was virtually a British made BMW with imperial bolts instead of metric.  And Frazer nash used the Bristol engine.

So, at different times, this car might have carried either maker's badging.

[75america]

Because we all like additional period pics:

[Iluvatar]

Because we all like additional period pics:

Pictures shooted in Piazzale Santorre di Santarosa, in Milan, a common background for Touring pictures...

[Wendax]

A beautiful car in a beautiful place.

For one point, please respond and identify this car.